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Thread: Major help with IAT Temperatures
05-27-2010, 06:20 PM #1
Major help with IAT Temperatures
I have been chasing this bitch ass gremlin of a problem for 2+ years and I just cant seem to figure it all out.
Ever since my motor swap (coincidentally the 2.4 KB to the 2.6H KB as well) I have been battling extremely high IAT temperatures. Temperatures that make me think? Is there even an intercooler on this damed car.
For some background, Stock motor, with a KB 2.4 at 10psi, stock KB coolant tank, Lightning Intercooler Pump, and a gords ford performance heat exchanger. I never saw over 118 degree IAT temperatures even after 3 back to back to back Dyno runs with no cooldown. Temperatures were always rock solid and i just never had a single issue. Car coolant temps would reach about 190 after a quarter mile pass TOPS even with the heat outside.
Since then i have had a couple of different setups:
1a. 6 gallon tank in the trunk, meziere remote water pump, gords HE. Had the lines gonig from tank to Intercooler, to hE back to tank, so when running ice, the coldest fluid would goto the SC first.
1b. Rerouted hoses to a factory setup, tank to HE to SC
1c. Moved pump lower than tank to combat starvation issues
2. 6 gallon insulated trunk tank, insulated hoses, Killer Chiller, Meziere remote water pump
3. Canton 1 gallon insulated tank, insulated lines, Killer Chiller, FRPP Lightning pump, Industrial 12 in place of R134a for a colder charge.
***All temps are IAT temps***
With setup 1a with no ice, I would see temps between 130-150 all the time on the street. Track temps would see over 190 and even saw over 200 degrees at a few points at the end of a quarter mile. Adding Ice would get my starting temps at the line to around 75-79 degrees but at the end of a run, I would still see 150-170. Every now and then the water pump would cavitate itself and i would have to bleed it.
1b got the street temps down into the 120-140 range so a bit of improvement with the HE first but track temps stayed about the same. Pump would still cavitate from time to time forcing me to bleed it.
1c completely stopped the cavitation issues but temperatures on the street and the track did not improve in the slightest
Setup 2 would regularly see my street temps im the low 100-120 range on the street which was a nice improvement so far in that area, however the track temps were netting me 135-155 at the end of a pass.
Joe at Killer chiller recommended going with a much smaller tank, citing 2-3 gallons as the optimum fluid capacity so out came all that crap and we moved into setup 3
The entire system holds about 2 gallons of fluid when you consider the lines, intercooler and tank, perhaps jsut under 2 gallons. All of the lines are insulated to protect them and the coolant in them from engine heat.
When I start the car and idle for about 2-3 minutes I see coolant temps around 35-40 degrees in the tank. Thats whats returning from the blower before it hits the killer chiller. Joe at KC states the fluid coming out of the KC is aproximately 15 degrees colder than the tank which means I am pumping 20-25 degree coolant through the blower at idle. Intake air temps are generally around 90-100 degrees. After completing the burnout i see about 120 degrees o nthe temps, and they do start to fall a bit as i stage and usually settle around 112-118 degrees. By the end of my quarter mile runs i am constantly seeing 150+ and even saw 170+ twice. So i drain the coolant as low as i can go in the tank, and cram an entire bag of ice in there to assist. I see the exact same temperatures, not one iota of improvement
It is as if the intercooler is doing absolutely nothing. as if it wasn't even there. Now when i was swapping the motor i had noticed that it was covered in oi land was dark in appearance when it should be shiny aluminum so i mixed up a simple green solution and let it sit for days and drained it. Then for good measure i sprayed the **** out of it with brake cleaner till it was shiny again, like new. I figured this had to help big time but nothing once again. Temps are skyrocketing and soaring like a ****ing bird.
I pulled the IAT sensor thinking it might be dirty or covered in oil after seeing the intercooler and cleaned it. Didnt help. I figured the sensor might be bad but if i let the car sit overnight, then start it in the morning it reads ambient temp so i know the sensor itself is working.
This leads me to believe it is heatsoak on the sensor, or KB just doesn't have it in a good spot, or, although i just cant fathom how, the intercooler isn't doing its job or is just ****. Someone also suggested that the pump could be slowing the flow of the fluid when under load, but i don't know how to confirm or test this. I did not see the results others saw when i had the ice tank in the trunk, no do i see similar results compared to the people with killer chillers. I am out of friggen ideas at this point and don't know where to turn. Granted i had the 2.4 at 10psi and the 2.6H at 15psi but that really cant make 70-80 degree difference in IAT, especially when i was running ice or using the KC.
I am going to buy a new sensor since they are so cheap anyway, but i have serious reservations of that fixing the issue. I am open to ANY suggestions at this point.
I did finally get a gauge to monitor water temps for the S/C system and i am going to plumb it into the return line coming out of the S/C and going into the tank to see just how hot (or cold) the fluid is getting (or remaining)
05-27-2010, 06:32 PM #2
How much boost?
What size crank and SC pully are you running?
What rpm are you running the engine up to?
05-27-2010, 06:41 PM #3
15psi as stated above. Stock Diameter Crank pulley (3.0 S/C pulley)
6400rpm shifts and cross at 6400
05-27-2010, 08:22 PM #4
Sorry, tried to read your whole post, missed the 15psi part towards the end. Is your crank pulley 6.5"? Is that stock?
Just going to throw some stuff out there...
I'm running a 2.1 at 19ish psi, 7.5" crank and 2.5" blower pulley, that's turning the KB 18,000 rpm at 6,000 engine rpm, the max KB suggests. So I'm pretty much spinning the piss out of it.
Are the IAT's you're seeing at the end of a 1/4 mile pass "as you go through the traps" or afterwards when you let off the gas and are slowing down? There are many things that factor in to your IAT's. When you go WOT for a 1/4 mile, and then just let off the gas, this opens the bypass and starts recirculating a bunch of really hot air, heating it up more and more.
If you're not already doing this, after you pass through the traps, take the car out of gear, brake with your left foot, and keep giving the car a little gas, keep the engine rpm around 2500rpm. This gets more fresh air going through the blower. Your IAT's after the pass will be lower.
I didn't see you mention the outside temps during your recent troubleshooting/testing but the bottom line is these things make some heat when turned up. I've raced in 40* weather and seen 200* IAT's as I slowed down if I didn't do like I said above and take it out of gear and keep the rpm up a little as I braked. And that was with ice in the reservoir. I took the car out for some fun yesterday and it was around 85* outside, I was seeing over 160* IAT's while sitting at stop lights and 140*-150* IAT's while cruising around town. The more you turn these up, the more air you're ALWAYS trying to shove in the motor. That means more air getting bypassed and shoved back through the blower, again, and again.
As for the intercooler fluid temps, I see between 80*and 110* depending on outside temps and what I'm doing with the car. I have a decent size tank in the back seat with a thermometer stuck in the lid. The fluid is cooled before it goes back to the tank so I'm seeing fluid temps right after it's been "cooled" and before it goes back to the KB. I have two stock KB heat exchangers in a box in the back seat next to the reservoir with a fan pulling air through them. This way they are always getting air over them even if sitting still. It works pretty good but again, these things make a lot of heat. I also have a larger radiator, an oil cooler, and a lower thermostat, my car runs around 160*-170*.
I know this, I can take the 2.5" pulley off, put a 3.5" pulley on, and my IAT's will go WAY down, just from spinning the blower less and trying to shove less air through the motor/bypass.
Another example, my car was on a dyno last weekend, it was around 75* outside I'd guess, my IAT's on the second (and last) pull were 126*. Why so much lower...? Because it was just a one gear pull and the car was turned off right at the end of it.
Maybe I'm rambling...but I'm just trying to say that I honestly don't think you have a problem. It doesn't sound that bad to me. It's no worse than I see and I beat on the car hard when needed. Assuming someone good tuned your car, it's a built motor and you put good gas in it, I think you'll be fine. I have been for a while now.
If you want to find out if your intercooler is helping, put the pump on a switch and turn the pump off while cruising around. Mine's on a switch and I've turned mine off to see what happens, just cruising around. Trust me, the intercooler makes a HUGE difference in IAT's.
05-27-2010, 10:45 PM #5
Thanks for your insights ken. I hear what you are saying but wwith fluid temps in the 20 degree range i shouldnt be seeing 170 degree IAT's at hte end of a run. and yes that is what the IAT is passing through the traps, not after i let off. Beleive it or not as soo nas i let off the gas, they start to immediately come down. I do believe the stock crank is a 6.75 iirc, if not its a 6.5. outside temps arent seemignto make a difference. last time it was 60 degrees out, this time 90 and im seeing the same temps on the IAT.
Your also running 19+ psi. Im at 14-15 depending on the air temp outside.
05-28-2010, 10:52 AM #6
- Join Date
- Jan 2005
- Alexandria, VA
I am surprised you don't just switch to the 2.6 (or (2.8 for that matter) and save yourself the trouble. Sounds like you have invested a lot more money in keeping the blower cool rather than just upgrading to the bigger blower, spinning it less and extending the life! I spun my little 1.7 to the breaking point and it would be heat soaked as all hell, even just driving around town! The 2.6 is so much better, I make less boost and more power with it. Granted you need the hood but in the long run, it really isn't that much.
As for my car. I have been having issues getting good flow through the IC system. I am running a GT500 pump, Gords Performance Heat Exchanger with twin fans, and a canton GT500 tank. Even with flow issues, my car idles with ICA's in the 90's no matter what the temp is outside, on a dyno run it will creep into the 120's but never seems to go above that.
Def replace the sensor, if it was covered in oil then it could still be shot, the oil may be still on it even after cleaned which would heat up and cause the sensor to go crazy. I pulled mine and replaced it but never looked at the temps.
Do you notice poor performance when you see high IAT's?
Good Luck man!
05-28-2010, 01:27 PM #7
Tooblue-I had the larger radiator, oil cooler, and lower thermostat before turning up the 2.1 to this level. I like to do extended abuse type stuff like auto crossing so I wanted all the cooling I could get. The larger inlet was given to me by turbocooker (David) for free with the agreement that I would have before/after testing done at MPH with it. Tim did the retune for me for free, so all it really cost me was a KB oval throttle body, and new throttle and cruise cable, and a weekend to switch it all over. I can put the 3.5" pulley on the blower, still make 460rwhp and run cooler than I used to with the old inlet (same 3.5" pulley) and only 400rwhp. The inlet makes a huge difference for me and it's all I really need considering how much more it would cost to upgrade to the 2.8H with the big inlet from MPH, which is the only one I'd get if upgrading. And it's been fun trying David's inlet out and seeing the before after difference.
94tbird-you really think the KC is cooling ice water another 15*-20*? I'm just asking, I don't know. I don't know the A/C ran THAT cold that it would make ice water another 15-20* colder. Other than that I don't know what to tell you. I see some high IAT's at times but just live at it. How good does your sytem flow? Mine gushes pretty good, my pump is under the passenger seat so the water is fed down to it from the reservoir and it moves pretty hard.
05-28-2010, 01:48 PM #8
- Join Date
- Jan 2005
- Alexandria, VA
I was just thinking you could get the 2.8H and really have some fun! Spinning the 2.1 at max RPM can't be good for it.
05-28-2010, 02:30 PM #9
Only one way to find out LOL It's only spinning/working hard when I'm close to redline so it doesn't spend a whole lot of time there.
I'd love a 2.8H with MPH's big inlet but I'm tired of spending ****loads of money on my car honestly. I'm pissed I have to spend money to upgrade the fuel system (AGAIN) if I want to keep enjoying it at this level. I've collected a few pieces but it will cost me probably another $500 to finish upgrading it, the right way. I guess I've just been lucky so far. It's running out of fuel pump around 5000rpm but the A/F is staying OK and I've been beating on it like this for a little while and it's run great. I usually have BAD luck, I'm really surprised nothing bad has happened.
05-28-2010, 05:51 PM #10
05-28-2010, 09:36 PM #11
Could be a problem with the blower.
05-28-2010, 09:44 PM #12
you think? it did melt something in the drive section once and they had to replace the snout
05-29-2010, 08:16 PM #13
- Join Date
- Feb 2009
I noticed you have a meziere pump. Could it be the pump is flowing too much and the heat exchanger doesn't have time to cool the water? Just a thought.
05-30-2010, 03:19 AM #14
- Join Date
- Nov 2006
Actually I think the opposite. The mezier remote water pump doesn't have any head (so can't push water thru small hoses/pipes, it is made for large openings and can only achieve then the high flow it is advertised for. So that could very well explain the higher temps.
Would go to the Bosch pump which is capable to push more water thru, here is one at a good price:
Sorry, just read your post better, and see that you have already ditched the meziere pump in Setup 3. I agree with the 2 gallon, as the system should only hold the amount of water/time the pump needs to have it circled 1 time in the time you need the power (i.e. 1/4 mile). I would guess with the bosch pump it could flow about 1 gallon in 10 seconds (is a guess), so 2 gallons is then more than enough (if 1/4 is the only thing
Last edited by avos; 05-30-2010 at 04:56 AM.
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