Dry Sump Oiling system Question

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  1. #1
    Member Array gt40man's Avatar
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    Default Dry Sump Oiling system Question

    I'm running a 2003 motor. Do I need to remove the stock oil pump to run the external pump? If so do I need to block off any ports? Not familiar with the install of this system as far as the internals go. Any help would be appreciated.

    Thanks

    Pete

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  3. #2
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    Ed Eschaider is running a 4.6 with a dry sump and can help you. If he hasn't caught onto this thread PM him.

    Be forewarned talking to him regarding mods gets expensive LOL

  4. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by gt40man View Post
    I'm running a 2003 motor. Do I need to remove the stock oil pump to run the external pump? If so do I need to block off any ports? Not familiar with the install of this system as far as the internals go. Any help would be appreciated.

    Thanks

    Pete
    Quote Originally Posted by SlowSVT View Post
    Ed Eschaider is running a 4.6 with a dry sump and can help you. If he hasn't caught onto this thread PM him.

    Be forewarned talking to him regarding mods gets expensive LOL

    Pete,

    It's not as expensive as Russ may lead you to believe. But you should know he does buy $50 rod bolts made from unobtanium

    The change over is relatively easy. I actually run an external wet sump system myself. While I recognize the dry sump as the best oiling system I think a well designed external wet sump can also be very good. I believe you are talking about an external wet sump so i will speak to that style system.

    I did not leave the OEM pump in. I think the best reason for not leaving it in is the potential for engine damage from broken gear material should anything go bump in the dark. Another reason is the oil out port from the stock oil pump provides an attractive oil return port if you choose to use an externally adjustable oil relief valve - more on that later.

    If you have not purchased your oil pump yet I would suggest you consider the Raceline series of pumps. I like them because they gave considerable thought to pump maintenance and parts usage. Whenever you use an external pump the normal wear components are the housing and the gears and the front and rear faces of the gear cavity. The upshot is a rebuild is usually the purchase of an entirely new pump save one or two parts. Race line puts replaceable wear plates at either enf of the gear cavity so the refresh is an inexpensive housing and gears.

    Here is their website, click here => Raceline Pumps You will want a single stage pump like they use for rear ends and transmission coolers but with a dry sump mounting blade.

    I also recommend their remote oil filter adapter (#1100) click here => Remote Filter It is not only the oil filter remote it is also the oil pressure relief so you can adjust your oil pressure with allen wrench as the engine is idling!

    You also need to get rid of the OEM filter/cooler etc down on the driver side front of the engine. FRPP makes an excellent replacement just built for an external pump or remote filter. Click here to see it => Adapter If you use a Teksid or Iron block FRPP offers one adapter for them, if you use a WAP or Aluminator block they offer another identical adapter that will fit them. Pay attention to the color of the gasket between the blobk and the stock housing and use the new adapter with the same color gasket.

    The bottom port on the adapter is the oil out port to the filter if you use a stock pump. If you use an external pump this port can be blocked or in the case of an externally adjustable oil pressure regulator this is where the oil will be returned to. The top port is high pressure filtered oil to the engine. Don't get them mixed up - it will cost you an engine.

    The easiest place to mount the pump is on the lower idler bracket from a Metco or LFP drive kit. You will need to get a mandrel for the crank snout to drive the pump. I use a 1.45" wide gear in the pump with the pump at 66% of engine speed (28T crank gear 42T Pump Gear). this will give you a lot of oil pressure if you want less you can just swap out the crank gear for a smaller tooth count assuming you couldn't get it down to where you want it with the pressure relief.

    I would give considerable thought to building a higher capacity oil pan. A big pump (and a good pump) will pump your pan dry and suck air, killing you engine! Just the opposite of what you want this for. I would recommend a minimum 8 or 9 quart pan. You can build these very easily if you have a waterjet shop, a sheet metal supplier and a welding shop in your area.

    Almost forgot, use an HTD drive gear and I recommend the one from Dailey Engineering. It is a cinch lock gear instead of allen screws that are tightened against the pump shaft. Here is their website click here Dailey Engineering the cinch lock gear is also available from CV products but is about $100 more expensive.

    BTW if you ever decide to go drysump you ought to look at Dailey's units. I think they are the finest you can buy anywhere. Each one is custom made and the entire system is integrated into their billet oil pan. Very, very nice arrangement.

    Hope this helps.

    Ed
    Last edited by eschaider; 02-18-2013 at 11:40 AM. Reason: spelling & Grammar

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    Member Array gt40man's Avatar
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    Thanks for the reply Ed and Russ,

    Sorry I wasn't clear about what type of system I intend to run.
    In fact I am talking about a dry sump system. I do have an Aviaid dry sump pan and a 3 stage pump. When you take out the stock pump do you need to block off any holes from where it used to reside? The other things you pointed out will be helpful too. I hadn't thought about them. On my particular application I intend on running A/C so I'll be installing the pump near where the power steering pump is. I have pictures if anybody is interested. I have not found a site more informative than right here so thanks for that.

    Pete

  7. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by gt40man View Post
    Thanks for the reply Ed and Russ,

    Sorry I wasn't clear about what type of system I intend to run.
    In fact I am talking about a dry sump system. I do have an Aviaid dry sump pan and a 3 stage pump. When you take out the stock pump do you need to block off any holes from where it used to reside? The other things you pointed out will be helpful too. I hadn't thought about them. On my particular application I intend on running A/C so I'll be installing the pump near where the power steering pump is. I have pictures if anybody is interested. I have not found a site more informative than right here so thanks for that.

    Pete
    Apologies for all the external wet sump banter, Pete.

    When you remove the internal stock pump you do not have to block off any of the ports. I encourage you to use the FRPP adapter I spoke of above. It simplifies a lot of the plumbing. If you use a pump with the pressure relief built in then you will block the lower port in the FRPP adapter with an AN plug.

    I run my external pump on the driver side of the engine because I use the A/C pump for intercooling the charge after it leaves the supercharger. Is your engine supercharged or N/A?

    Ed

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    Hi Ed,

    My engine is supercharged. I'm glad you mentioned the A/c topic. Did you make a bracket for the pump and /or eliminate the power steering? I won't be using the power steering on my car. I am curious as to how you did mount the pump. I will go for the FRPP adaptor since I have not purchased that yet. So when you remove the stock pump won't oil bypass the system? How about the oil pickup tube port. Wouldn't oil want to pour out of there. Sorry for all the questions. Setting up the pump seems easy, it's the unknown internally that has me baffled.

    Pete

  9. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by gt40man View Post
    Hi Ed,

    My engine is supercharged. I'm glad you mentioned the A/c topic. Did you make a bracket for the pump and /or eliminate the power steering? I won't be using the power steering on my car. I am curious as to how you did mount the pump. I will go for the FRPP adaptor since I have not purchased that yet. So when you remove the stock pump won't oil bypass the system? How about the oil pickup tube port. Wouldn't oil want to pour out of there. Sorry for all the questions. Setting up the pump seems easy, it's the unknown internally that has me baffled.

    Pete
    Pete,

    I eliminated the P/S. There is a company called Metco that makes lower drive pulley assemblies to provide interchangeable lowers. They build a replacement idler bracket and pulley to replace the OEM piece when you switch to their hubs. That bracket has just enough room on it to also mount the dry sump pump. Their lower drive hub also makes it easy to mount your dry sump drive mandrel to the front of the crank. Here is their website => Metco. I just noticed in their current picture the aluminum plate has had triangular lightening holes machined into it. It doesn't much matter though because it is just a flat plate - easy to fabricate. Metco will sell you the pulley post (about $13) for the idler pulley and it simply bolts to the plate. You then mount your pump in the unused real estate area.

    When you remove the stock pump you aso remove the oil pump pickup tube and the bracketry. The oil pump delivers pressurized oil out the lower port, on the side of the block, to the oil filter and then re-enters the block through the top port. In your application you will plug the lower, to seal the crankcase, and take the output from your remote filter to the upper port and you are done. It's that simple.

    Ed

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    Ed,
    Thank you so much...in one fell swoop you provided an answer for a whole bunch of problems/questions I had with this part of my build. I really appreciate the help. Once i get past this part of my build I'll be jumping into the oiling system.
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    Pete

    What's that Eaton doing sitting on top of the gorgeous engine mated to a GT transaxle?

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    MMR makes a thrust bearing in place of the stock oil pump that you might want to check out. I think it is like 250$

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    Whew...I need to control costs for the time being so I'll keep things stock...beside...how much horse power does one need

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueBossS197 View Post
    MMR makes a thrust bearing in place of the stock oil pump that you might want to check out. I think it is like 250$
    Now that I know I'll need to take the pump out I will look into that bearing. Thanks for reminding me.

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    Since no one makes a dry sump kit that retains the A/C I needed to do it myself. Also in my application the chassis clearance is at a premium so I had to go with the Dailey Engineering SP pump. It has a small cross section to fit into those tight places. I welded a pad onto the cast pan and machined it down for a landing place to bolt to. The bracket itself has O ring grooves for sealing the fittings and pump. Next up is routing the hoses. I'll also add threaded inserts for the exhaust. The last thing I need is threads wearing out from constantly putting on and taking off the headers. I couldn't leave the studs in because of the way the pipes need to come off. Taking off that crank support assembly is going to be a bitch. By the way thanks to Ed for all his advice and help!
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    More than happy to be able to help Pete.

    The GT40 is a timeless design and an automotive icon. The way yours is going together it will eclipse the performance of the originals - quite an achievement for a car that won LeMans four years in a row from 1966 through 1969 in a thoroughly convincing manner. You will be lighter and decidedly more powerful than even the 7 liter MKII cars that broke everybody's brain back in the day.

    Ed

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