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Thread: 2V to 3V conversion on a '98 GT
04-11-2011, 11:48 PM #1
2V to 3V conversion on a '98 GT
So, I finally got off my butt and built an engine for my '98 GT. I decided to do a 2V to 3V conversion because I've done them before (was actually the first). It's a cost effective upgrade and produces good power with a lot of room for future power upgrades. Obviously the least expensive route would be to find a complete '05-'10 motor, and you can find them for around 1500 bucks complete on ebay, can't beat that. I had some parts lying around however, so I created sort of a bastard creation using parts no one wanted.
I started with a really beat up Teksid block from a Mark VIII that I got for free by putting someone's car on the dyno.
I had it hot tanked because it had a lot of corrosion and it appeared that the engine had been over heated at some point, but it checked out ok. I decked it .003" for an 8.934" deck height to ensure flatness and that the deck surfaces were parallel to the crankshaft centerline. About $800 in machining costs, but not too bad.
For the crank shaft, I used a crank that had been damaged on the rod bearings. It's a stock crank from an '06 GT, so I had it turned down from the stock 2.08" (I think) rod size to a 1.888" honda H22 size. This cleaned up all the rod damage, and combined with the weight taken out and the weight that could be taken out of the counterweights removed 3.5lbs from the crank. Sadly I couldn't find any pics of the crank, but check out the rods.
They are eagle items, 5.95" center to center (stock is 5.933"). On top is the eagle items, bottom is a standard Manley modular H beam. They weigh 548 grams, the manleys weigh 603, not to mention they are quite a bit cheaper than the Manleys and have the same .866" piston pin size. I had the crank offset ground when it was being turned to the smaller bearing size, so it's now a 3.52" stroke (stock is 3.543"). Combined with the slightly longer rods, slightly decked block, and stock piston compression height (1.220") I have .004" deck clearance, much better than the stock .0125". With the .020" overbore it's 282ci.
I chose regular Mahle flat top pistons because they are the best design on the market, and at about $550 bucks with pins they are really cheap. I then whipped up a CAD drawing and had a custom dish machined in them.
Top is my dish, bottom is a standard "spherical" dish. This helps to create better "squish" with the flat parts of the cylinder head. The crowns on Mahle pistons are really thick, much thicker than say a Diamond piston, so I had .050" taken out of the underside too.
All told they weigh 335 grams and they cost me less than $750 with machining, pins, everything.
I got junkyard 3V heads and then went really cheap and just had them decked for flatness, cleaned up some casting flash in them, then put new valvesprings in them and called it a day. I plan on putting cams into it, hence the valvesprings, but I'll run it with stock cams for now.
Old non-PI ugliness
Got the valvecovers and front cover from the junkyard, el cheapo. Definitely a budget build, but they look okay cleaned up and painted.
These are the exhaust adapter plates so that you can use 2V exhaust.
I have done this with Mac headers and know they will work, but are tight. I decided to try a couple different kinds, but in keeping with the cheapo theme I decided to try Pypes and Hedman headers. The Pypes are JUNK, they wouldn't even fit on a standard 2V car, fitment was terrible. The Hedmans fit GREAT, almost like they were made for the 3V conversion. They are cheap too, but there is no readily available H or X pipe for them, I'll fix that tho.
It runs and drives now, I'm gonna take some more pictures of the completed installation when I get a chance. I'm gonna try to dyno it this weekend to see how it does.
Other things. I used a Melling oil pump because I'm eventually going to do cams and rev it, I think this is a no brainer upgrade. I converted the car to COP ignition which is really easy, I'll get some pics of that as well. I used Livernois full advance lockouts (about 109 intake centerline) to eliminate the VCT. I got the intake for 50 bucks on ebay, I just removed the CMRC plates and shafts and expoxied the holes closed and voila, free CMRC delete plates. I'll take some close ups of the throttle cable/throttle body setup. It's a stock Cobra twin blade I got for 30 bucks on ebay. The cobra throttle body is twin 57mm vs. the '05-'10 twin 52mm, so it's a slight upgrade.
The cold air is something I make that mounts the IAC valve on it, I'll get some pics of all that conversion stuff soon. Maybe I'll do a nice write up too.
Cause it's a '98 I couldn't use the '05 fuel rail like you could if it were a '99-'04, so I got cheapo fuel rails off of ebay for 30 bucks, then bought summit fittings, line, and a regulator. I used conduit hold downs from menards to keep them in place. I even routed the fuel rails a certain way to minimize the amount of fittings I'd have to use, not only is it cheap, it's light! Anyway I'll get some more pics soon so you can see what I'm talking about.
Here is hoping it makes okay power!
04-12-2011, 10:14 AM #2
- Join Date
- Nov 2008
- San Fernando, CA
04-12-2011, 12:06 PM #3
When you guys finally start rolling these kits out I got a big bore going together for my 3V conversion combo.
04-12-2011, 12:30 PM #4
Found some more pics, including my super special "lightweight" junkyard crank.
Nick, we actually have everything ready to rock. We even have the coolant hoses and water crossover worked out with temp sensors and everything. Throttle cable, cable bracket, TB adapter, exhaust adapters, fuel rail pressure adapter for '99-'04's, CAI with IAC mount, you name it. I'm working on getting the stuff on the website, I've just been busy.
04-12-2011, 12:52 PM #5
- Join Date
- Mar 2011
Nice. Its always good see when ppl think outside the box.
Hey mod motor maniac, could you please explain what do you mean by saying "I used Livernois full advance lockouts (about 109 intake centerline) to eliminate the VCT." ?
wouldnt you need VCT to get the extra scavenging effect to make the most power out of ur motor
How does full advance lockout elimanate VCT?
04-12-2011, 01:38 PM #6
Okay so a few companies developed cam "lockouts" that put the camshaft in it's "full" advanced position that is allowable by the factory cam phasers. This position is similar to the position of a standard modular 2V cam gear. The only thing that VCT was for on the 3V engines is smoother engine idling, it didn't allow any sort of cam advance for better torque down low. It also only moves the lobe centerlines together, it can't change valve overlap. The only benefit you may get from VCT on the 3V engines is a slight improvement in top end power.
The VCT on the 3V engines cannot handle aftermarket valve spring forces, this is why lockouts were developed for the 3V cars. I put a "lockout" in the cam phasers because there is no provision in the 2V computer for VCT control. I'm using the stock harness and computer to run this engine as it would be very difficult and expensive to switch it over to a 3V computer. The ford racing kit will not work with the '96 and up cars, maybe you could adapt it but it's expensive as well and the benefits are small.
04-12-2011, 06:39 PM #7
- Join Date
- Mar 2011
ahh, i see.
so the cam phaser is the silver thingy in front of the cam gear or is that the lockout?
04-12-2011, 07:03 PM #8
The Phaser is the whole cam gear, the little plate on the front is used for telling the computer relative cam position.
The lockout is just a small piece of aluminum that prevents the cam from moving separate from the toothed gear.
that's what it looks like inside, the lockout is just the small piece of blue aluminum.
04-12-2011, 07:26 PM #9
- Join Date
- Mar 2011
learned. a picture is truly worth thousand words. lol
04-12-2011, 07:59 PM #10
04-12-2011, 09:53 PM #11
Nice! I've been wondering about this and if it would be worth the switch.
04-12-2011, 10:06 PM #12
04-12-2011, 11:36 PM #13
Would it be better to have custom headers made? Are those plates going to be a restriction if someone ever decides to go FI? And would a Whipple kit for a 3V fit on that engine now?
04-13-2011, 06:07 AM #14
Ryan I can match those plates to the specific heads/headers if desired, this is a combo I have been looking at doing for awhile now. Tymensky already has my block that we are going big bore on for this swap. Since you already have a cowl hood you become a good candidate as that is one of the issues (hood clearance at the front of the motor).
What I like for my combo (NA) you get the flow and power potential of a 4V with the equivalent lightweight motor of a 2V and plastic intake. This is really good for autoX and road race enthusiasts.
04-13-2011, 07:51 AM #15
The Whipple shouldn't be a problem, just like Nick said. The hood is the worst part of this swap...but getting a hood means power adders shouldn't be a problem.
As for the headers, custom headers have been made, but because it is a niche product and not a ton of people are doing this (yet) they are really expensive. You could easily spend more on the headers than you do on buying a complete motor, which sort of kills the budget aspect. I am building jigs so that I will be able to modify existing 2V headers by welding on 3V flanges, but again this will be more expensive than using the exhaust plates I make.
Also, those plates are patterned after ported exhaust ports, I highly doubt they would become a restriction unless you did something really radical.
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