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  1. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by oldmodman View Post
    Rd, I am going to bring a spare crank over to a friend's dad. He is a metallurgical engineer at McDonnell Douglas.
    I want to get his opinion on Tig welding in the undercut, machining and polishing it down, and re heat treating the crank.
    Then aerospace shot peening it. Should be doable unless the heat of welding compromises the snout interface strength.
    But then when you ad up all the costs involved how close does it get to your billet crank?

    I think you can do this Drew. Without access to the facilities necessary to do it, I suspect it might be cost prohibitive. I am not familiar enough with the C38 MicroAlloy I believe they use in the crank to know how it will respond. You're Dad's friend will be or at least will be able to get access to the information. As you discover more about it please share it with the rest of us.

    Ed

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  3. #17

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    Here is my Bryant crank that just came in couple days ago.


  4. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Micah442 View Post
    Here is my Bryant crank that just came in couple days ago.


    That is one fine looking crankshaft Micah. Bryant makes some very nice pieces. If it is not too much trouble could you take a couple of photos of the the counterweight cheek/rod journal intersection so readers can see the full radius fillets that Bryant uses there. While you are at it, it would also be helpful if you could take a picture of the snout for the same reason.

    Great looking piece. If you aren't already, you will be glad you made the investment.

    Good luck on your build.


    Ed

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  6. #19

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    The undercut on the snout was the main reason I went with a billet crank. I run a cog driven procharger and I wanted the crank to be as robust as possible to prevent any possible issues down the road. I'm also going to design a crank support to work with it as well to give it that much more strength. I went with a Scat Pro Billet crank made from EN30B, nitrided, gun drilled mains tapered counter weights etc. It's a night and day difference when looking at it compared to one of the Kellogg cranks, hopefully I won't have to worry about it at all.

    Do you think that there is any benefit to running the stud setup like you have on a billet crank? If so, I can always pull the crank back out of the engine and get this done since the motor hasn't been started yet. Of course I would have to have it all balanced again I'm sure which means that it would all have to come back apart.

  7. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Helomech74 View Post
    The undercut on the snout was the main reason I went with a billet crank. I run a cog driven procharger and I wanted the crank to be as robust as possible to prevent any possible issues down the road. I'm also going to design a crank support to work with it as well to give it that much more strength. I went with a Scat Pro Billet crank made from EN30B, nitrided, gun drilled mains tapered counter weights etc. It's a night and day difference when looking at it compared to one of the Kellogg cranks, hopefully I won't have to worry about it at all.

    Do you think that there is any benefit to running the stud setup like you have on a billet crank? If so, I can always pull the crank back out of the engine and get this done since the motor hasn't been started yet. Of course I would have to have it all balanced again I'm sure which means that it would all have to come back apart.
    SCAT makes some great cranks and is among the oldest of the manufacturers out there Jim. The EN30B steel is one of three or four steels that produce really tough cranks. It is one rugged, resilient steel. I understand your affection for the crank support, billet crank not withstanding. Until you put one of these super cranks next to a Kellogg it's hard to really appreciate just how much better a billet is. The OEM undercut on the snout is a real show stopper for me also and the reason I finally embarked on the billet solution.

    Whether an individual decides to go billet or Kellogg the stud is a good thing to do. Even on a billet, if you can take a tensile load off the snout and leave only a torsional load for driving the front end accessories and blower it is to your advantage. On a crank like your SCAT I believe you will have what is called straight shot oiling to the rods. Straight shot is a single drilling from main to rod journal without cross drilling the main. Straight shot oiling is much preferred today over the cross drilled method the OEM crank uses.

    Because you are most probably straight shot you have the benefit of going all the way back to the #1 counterweight - unless you had SCAT rifle drill the mains. If the mains are rifle drilled then you can only go back to #1 main with the stud. The big deal about the stud is it takes away a tensile loading from the crank snout that does nothing positive and a lot of things negative. The stud also lets you really clamp down the entire snout assembly so you can get away from a lot of the fretting and work all those parts like to do as they move around ever so slightly on the crank snout in service.

    If you want to do the stud let me know and I will dig out the ARP part numbers for you so you don't have to do an Easter egg search for the components. For everyone else that is reading this as soon as I find those part numbers again, I will publish for everyone.

    FWIW the stud does not require rebalancing the crank. All mass removal is symmetric about the crank centerline and therefore does not affect balance. Almost forgot this point from your post; to do the stud you will have to remove the crank from the engine. It is a virtual impossibility to machine it (especially EN30B) in the block. It has to be done in a lathe in a machine shop.

    Can't wait to see you car finished Jim - it should be an animal.


    Ed

  8. #21
    Moving on up... Array Smokin04's Avatar
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    Subbing...good stuff here.

  9. #22

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    Thanks for the reply Ed. I'll look more into the stud when I get a chance to get home again (in another few months). I can pull the crank no problem, as the motor is just sitting in the car, I can pull it out and put it on a stand in no time. The crank does have straight shot oiling and chamfered oiling holes, it's also gun drilled and has the Pro Comp lightweight counter weight design. I also had it double keyed, although I don't envision needing to use the double keys since the balancer is an interference type press fit. The crank was a bit pricey, but so were all the other parts I used and I didn't want to run the risk of busting the crank at the factory undercut and destroying all the other parts in the process. I consider it to be a sort of insurance I guess. I sold a few parts to help offset the cost, so at the end of the day it wasn't too bad I guess.

  10. #23
    Senior Member Array Mark8Denny's Avatar
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    subscribing - any updates here ?

    I have a 4V 5.0 stroker running an overdrive balancer and a YSI blower on a single keyway - it's apart about to be freshened -

  11. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by eschaider View Post
    Jim,

    I believe it is from the Mustang. The valve covers say Rolls Royce although I don't think I see the two stage supercharger on this one. The supercharger is hard to see because they mounted it on the back of the engine. Here is a picture of the Packhard manufactured version of the engine taken from behind so the two speed two stage centri is visible.

    Attachment 83116

    I believe the large round casing behind the propeller shaft is the gear reduction unit used to maintain constant propeller speed.

    The centri supercharger was capable of producing upwards of 39.5 psi if my information is correct and used (on the Griffin version of the engine) a water methanol injection system at takeoff. Pretty impressive technology for WWII era engines.

    Ed
    Having worked on these the big round casing on the back inline with the crank is the compressor, at the extreme end with the 2 snorkel looking casting is the carburetor. They are a constant pressure carburetor.
    On all the radial engines the back of the engine is also the compressor, 36-42 inches in diameter.

    Having spent 10 years at the Reno Races, last time 2001 they were running the Merlin's and the Pratt-Whitney's at around 150-160 inches of manifolds pressure. That's 65 psi gauge.
    Now they run 55 gal of methanol injection as well for a 15-20 minute race. Fuel burn is about 300 gal/hr of C16.

  12. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael-L&M View Post
    Having worked on these the big round casing on the back inline with the crank is the compressor, at the extreme end with the 2 snorkel looking casting is the carburetor. They are a constant pressure carburetor.
    On all the radial engines the back of the engine is also the compressor, 36-42 inches in diameter.

    Having spent 10 years at the Reno Races, last time 2001 they were running the Merlin's and the Pratt-Whitney's at around 150-160 inches of manifolds pressure. That's 65 psi gauge.
    Now they run 55 gal of methanol injection as well for a 15-20 minute race. Fuel burn is about 300 gal/hr of C16.


    Micheal, I am continually wowed by the breath and depth of your knowledge and experience. I figured the pics and discussion would draw some Merlin expertise - I just didn't know where it would come from.

    Those engines and the plane have always blown me away. The sight and sound of a P-51 under power just makes the hair on the back of my neck stand at attention. The planes are beautiful, the engines are are works of art and to see one in flight flexing it's muscles is awe inspiring. They may be the greatest propeller driven aircraft of all time. I'm an easy push over for one of these but you can probably tell that by now.

    Ed

  13. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark8denny View Post
    subscribing - any updates here ?

    I have a 4V 5.0 stroker running an overdrive balancer and a YSI blower on a single keyway - it's apart about to be freshened -

    Hang tight Mark (is that correct?). There will be some intermediate updates that will provide a pretty good fix - not as good as a billet but pretty good. I'll need a couple of more weeks before I have the first prototypes ready to show.

    Ed

  14. #27

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    Hey Ed, I will be giving you a phone call in a day or so.

  15. #28
    Demented and old Array showme cobra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eschaider View Post
    Micheal, I am continually wowed by the breath and depth of your knowledge and experience. I figured the pics and discussion would draw some Merlin expertise - I just didn't know where it would come from.

    Those engines and the plane have always blown me away. The sight and sound of a P-51 under power just makes the hair on the back of my neck stand at attention. The planes are beautiful, the engines are are works of art and to see one in flight flexing it's muscles is awe inspiring. They may be the greatest propeller driven aircraft of all time. I'm an easy push over for one of these but you can probably tell that by now.

    Ed
    i agree ED, the P-51 when maited with merlin was def the baddest prop airplane,have you ever heard a f4u corsair in a power dive? awesome noise, i can see why the japs called it whistling death
    Last edited by showme cobra; 02-14-2012 at 05:22 PM.

  16. #29
    Moving on up... Array Smokin04's Avatar
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    I have heard the F8 Bearcat would would turn circles around an F4U Corsair. The Mustang could out-climb the Zero which was the first American plane to be able to do so. Changed the tides of the war.

  17. #30
    Senior Member Array JamesHell's Avatar
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    Heres a fun pic since we are discussing.
    Name:  2mustangs.jpg
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    I got lucky to be picked at a car show to get this pick for nothing

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