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Thread: Crank Tech

  1. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by eschaider View Post
    When i did mine, I stopped the drilling just short of the oil passage. The difference between penetrating the oil hole and not penetrating it is less than 1 additional thread of engagement. To avoid the potential oil weeping headache it is worth the effort to stop short of the oil passage in the crank. Ed
    I ended up stopping .200" from the oil passage. I have mixed feelings as I remember seeing pictures of cranks breaking between that first main and the portion of snout that drives the oil pump. Seems the only way to truly solve that would be to have the stud threaded behind that transition, but there just enough enough material for it to make any difference IMO. You can only get about 2 threads behind it.

    FWIW I wasn't able to get time on a lathe big enough to do this so I used drill bushings, I made my own adapter bushing with a 3/4" bore and a 1.25" OD and kept the balancer on to pilot my adapter. Then I made a clamp that bolts to the balancer and sandwiches the bushings to keep them pressed to the end of crank snout and retain alignment.

    Then I bought a 6" long "pulley tap" and made another aluminum bushing with a bore that was tight to the tap shaft. Once I tapped the hole with the plug tap end, I chopped off the end 4 threads turning it into a bottom tap and I ran it down again to clean and bottom tap. (I think I saw that mentioned earlier in this thread)

    Once all that was done I discovered the recommended washer was about .25" too large of an OD to fit in the Innovators west balancer so I had to turn it down.

    All in all this was a very time consuming process. Initially I was thinking that this method would allow the crank to be modded while still in the car, but drilling that 31/64" hole 3.7" deep took me ALL day despite using some trickery to motivate things.

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  3. #107

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    This is definitely an out of car, out of block operation, Eric. I can not even imagine doing it any other way. Your approach using drill bushings was quite creative. The job, even in a lather is a fair amount of work. The deeper you sink the stud, the stronger the assembly which is why I took it to the oil hole. If you have an aftermarket Kellogg then there is no cross drilling of the #1 main and you can use a longer stud and anchor it a half inch deeper or more into the #1 main.

    Although the primary oil feed to #1 crank pin on a cross drilled crank would still get properly oiled if you did this, the "back side" of the #1 cross drilling would just accumulate oil and eventually the 'stale' oil in that cavity could represent a potential problem for the #1 main. I suppose you could make up a small pin and drive it into the backside oil drilling that would no longer be used. As simple as this process is (after you've done it once) it can be a fairly daunting process the first time.

    This is a pic of where Ford was initially experiencing crank failures on their 24 hr endurance session on the dyno.

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    Their fix was to reduce the diameter of the oil pump drive journal sufficiently (remember this engine uses a dry sump) to provide a continuous full radius transition from the main journal to what would've been the oil pump drive journal on a 4.6L crank. This is what the modified factory crank looked like;

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    This fix can not be used with a crank driven OEM pump like most 4.6L engines use.

    As good as this mod is, when you stop short of anchoring the stud in the #1 main you cease to sandwich the snout components between the #1 main and the stud. Instead you establish an anchoring point in the snout outside of the crank not in the #1 main journal. As the stud tension is increased to its torque spec it transfers this loading to the face of the #1 main journal through the damper. The effect is similar to a paint bucket nailed to a 2X4 with our feet on the 2X4 and our hands pulling up on the bucket handle. The result is predictable, the bucket will be torn off the 2X4.

    When the stud anchors in the snout rather than the main bearing the physical phenomena is similar. Think of the damper hub shoulder as your feet on the 2X4 and the journal face of the crank where the hub pushes against as the 2X4. To get the sandwiching effect it is necessary to have the stud anchor in the main bearing allowing the stud tension to sandwich the snout components between the main bearing journal and the nut end of the stud. When the anchor point is instead placed in the stud this is the sort of failure that can be expected;

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    All of the tensile loading was applied to the undercut radius on the snout just in front of the oil pump journal. The snout diameter is 1.25" the under cut fillet is 0.060" or possibly a little more. The snout OD at the undercut fillet is 1.125" with a 12 mm hole for the OEM bolt and a 0.5625" diameter hole for the 9/16" stud modification. The remaining wall thickness is (1.125 - 0.5625)/2 or 0.281" of wall thickness at the undercut fillet.

    When you want to cut glass you scribe the glass where you want the cut to occur and the glass will fracture along the scribed line. In many ways hardened steel is similar. The undercut fillet is the equivalent of the scribe mark on the glass and the result is what we see above. The pic below is the snout side view of the same fracture viewed from inside the timing cover;

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    My preferred approach to this modification is to get as much of the stud as possible anchored into the #1 main bearing as deep as possible. The drawings will get you to the #1 main oil cross drilling. If you choose to go deeper I would recommend plugging the side of the cross drilling that does not feed the #1 crank pin. I would discourage going shallower than the drawings. I believe a shallower anchor point would aggravate the snout breakage problem.


    Ed
    Last edited by eschaider; 06-12-2016 at 11:43 AM. Reason: Spelling & Grammar

  4. #108
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    OK I was able to get it to 3.81" deep. Anything deeper than that is going to require me chucking my adapter bushing in the lathe and cutting the face down.

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  6. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by eschaider View Post
    Apologies, skipped over the first four



    No just finger tight.



    I am informed by ARP engineering that all of the studs ARP is making now are broached.




    Not required and not recommended.




    I would use a damper installer with a 9/16 NC snout bolt.



    Ed
    Good Morning Ed, reviving this old thread for some more help. Is their a certain dampener installer with a 9/16 NC bolt you’d recommend? Having the crank snout stud mod I would assume the the 9/16 bolt in the kit would need to be fairly long to work.

  7. #110

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    There is not, that I am aware of, Dave.

    If I remember correctly I used an ARP super washer and a long 9/16 bolt to pull the damper onto the crank snout.


    Ed

  8. #111
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    Fastenal sells some high grade threaded rod. Using threaded rod reduced the risk of pulling the threads out of the crank snout.

  9. #112

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    Quote Originally Posted by Swerve View Post
    Fastenal sells some high grade threaded rod. Using threaded rod reduced the risk of pulling the threads out of the crank snout.
    Good practice approach that Eric is suggesting, Dave.


    Ed


    p.s. If you are using an aftermarket (Non-Ford) manufactured damper try to shoot for 0.001" to 0.0015" press fit. Your local machine shop can hone the damper to any size spec you ask for. Best bet is to take the crank and damper and you'll get the best fit possible.
    Last edited by eschaider; 03-24-2019 at 11:25 AM. Reason: Added Postscript

  10. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by eschaider View Post
    There is not, that I am aware of, Dave.



    If I remember correctly I used an ARP super washer and a long 9/16 bolt to pull the damper onto the crank snout.


    Ed

    Looks like I can thread the arp snout stud .6” into the crank with the ATI hub sitting on the end. Do you think that would be a safe amount to use the snout stud without worry of damaging the crank threads? ATI mentions using anti seize on the crank to help with install-Have you ever seen anti seize used? As always Thanks Ed
    Last edited by 4vFoxx; 03-26-2019 at 02:14 PM.

  11. #114

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    Quote Originally Posted by 4vFoxx View Post
    Looks like I can thread the arp snout stud .6” into the crank with the ATI hub sitting on the end. Do you think that would be a safe amount to use the snout stud without worry of damaging the crank threads? ATI mentions using anti seize on the crank to help with install-Have you ever seen anti seize used? As always Thanks Ed
    If you use a fastener to pull the damper down you will progressively add washers to the fastener to complete the job. A long stud or threaded rod like Eric suggested is a better route. If you use the long stud and use the nut to pull the damper down you may damage the fine threads on the stud. I would suggest buying a commercial installer that uses a 9/16" fastener rather than trying to cobble together something — in the end you'll be much happier.

    Anti sieze is a lubricant that will allow the damper to spin on the crank snout — generally a bad idea. Plain motor oil should give all the lubrication you need. If not from Ford, remember to size the damper for a 0.00125" to 0.0015" interference fit — maximum.


    Ed

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