Huuuge project... Need input

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  1. #1

    Icon4 Huuuge project... Need input

    Ladies and Gentlemen, here is a short summary of what i'm doing and looking for help with : Swapping a 3.8L v6 w/ an 04 mach 1 4.6 and putting on an air to air intercooled vortech supercharger. I'm looking for insight on the install, suggestions or comments, tips or pointers / really anything in general. And yes, I know the swap has been covered.


    Here is the longwinded version : I'm a United States Marine in California, and as much as I love my job, I love my car just as much. I picked the car up for 2k in 2007 and have been transforming it into something else entirely. I bought a 4.6L DOHC 32v v8 from a donor car a few years ago along w/ the ecu, wiring harness, 3650 trans, d.s., and 8.8 rear w/ 3.55s. I planned on putting it in immediately, but I've been to Iraq twice (2005-06 and 08-09) and Afghanistan twice (2009-10 and 11-12) (I had 07 off from the war on terrorism. .) so that has put a kink in my timeline obviously. I just got back about a month ago, and have been piecing together the other things i needed for my swap... radiator, fan and shroud, ccrm, UPR off-road x, hydraboost, etc... Then i said to hell w/ it.. If the engine is out, I might as well go big or go home, so I bought a vortech v2 T-trim w/ air to air intercooler and blow through maf from the forums here. And of course that led to me needing more things... Just picked up dual focus pumps, K.B. bap, and forged manley I beams and pistons (18cc dish for 8.5:1 compression). I'm still looking for a dual fpdm set up and 60lb injectors. I'm doing the swap w/ two other Marines and they were professional mechanics prior to the Corps. I'm handy myself, so the entire swap will be done on base by us and then trailered to a tune shop for the electrical hookups, pats and tuning. I'm very familiar w/ what is required for the engine swap, but the only thing i can find on an intercooler / vortech install is for the aftercooled model and I have no pictures as reference. So if you have some useful places i could find solid information on any or all of the things involved in the swap (spec. the k.b. bap install, vortech and i.c. install) it would be a HUGE help. I'm shooting for 425 to the wheels, maybe a little more on a safe tune. I know its impossible to tell, but does that seem reasonable? If you have any suggestions whatsoever, things you think I should pick up, parts that worked well for you or solid install info please let me know. I appreciate you taking the time to read this huge novel.


    This will be the final setup : 2004 mach 1 4.6L 32v V8 w/ forged internals (8.5:1 C.R.), Vortech v2 T-trim air to air intercooled supercharger, stock 3650 trans, d.s and 8.8" rear w/ 3.55s, dual focus pumps w/ K.B. bap, 60lb injectors and dual fpdm. Thanks again for the help.

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  3. #2
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    On low boost you'll be fine, but that t trim can kill those I beams on high boost. Please don't drop your compression that low on a Centri car, it'll be a dog out of boost.
    Any procharger setup can show how they run intercoolers it'll pretty much be the same.
    There's alot of cx racing intercooler mount threads(although I don't recommend that intercooler for a centri car.) so they shouldn't be hard to find.

  4. #3

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    Yeah, I was thinking that too about the compression, but everybody's been pushing me to 8.5. What would you suggest? 9 something? Ugh... the intercooler is cx... why not for a centri?

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    You can make the cx work fine on low boost, you may have to pulley the supercharger up/down to achieve the desired boost/hp you want. With an intercooler that only drops 1-2psi and you run say a 3.2 pulley to achieve xxx boost/hp you may have to run a 3.0 to achieve that same xxx boost/hp with a less efficient intercooler. (cx racing)

    9:1 is pretty much considered the bottom for centri cars, heck most positive displacement cars are doing 9:1.



    Edit: Should've mentioned that if you try to max out a centri you'll notice that lost boost...

  7. #5

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    Sgt,

    I know you have already bought the Vortech but what BlackVenom said about low speed grunt is pretty real with a Centri or Turbo. Once they get some turbine speed they are savages but up to that point they are softer than a PD blown equivalent. If you are racing the car the Vortech will perform impressively. If you are using it primarily on the street the immediate boost and torque of a PD blower might give a better seat of the pants effect that a Centri. Just a thought before you get too far invested to turn back.

    Ed

  8. #6

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    Which Manley I beams did you get? Are they the billet ones (Usually about 1500 bucks) or the forged ones? If you bought the forged ones, I would seriously consider dumping those for the H beams. For compression I wouldn't go lower then 10:1 on centri personally, but everyone has their opinion on this. I would have went with a custom set of pistons as opposed to anything off the shelf, especially when running boost. You really want that top ring down as far as you can get it in my opinion. What piston brand did you go with if you don't mind me asking? If you're only shooting for 425 to the wheels, you could have just stuck with the stock Mach motor as it can take it just fine.

  9. #7

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    @ Ed: i really did want to go pd, but i was planning on keeping my stock bottom end and didn't want to throw a rod w/ a p.d., plus i'm a d.i.y. guy and it looked a lot tougher than a centri. @ blackvenom: yeah, i think i'm gonna call MMR and see if i can swap for a smaller dish to raise it to the low/mid 9s. @ helomech: I got the forged I beams, I think I may have screwed myself over a bit on the low comp., I'm just trying to be very safe w/ the car as the government isn't gonna pay for a replacement motor and I have sworn to keep the car until i'm 107. The I beams should be good to 600ish right? i don't think I'll ever be near that... (of course i'm sure everybody says that) I did think about going N.A. to hit 400ish, but it was gonna be extremely expensive and if i did decide to bump it up there's so much more room to grow w/ f.i. Thanks a lot for the input gentlemen.

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  11. #9
    Moving on up... Array Smokin04's Avatar
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    Yeah a bump in compression would be a good thing, but not a super-priority. You could always hit it with a little N20 to get it moving down low. This will no doubt be a LOT of work for you and your buds...plan on at least a week or so. If you already have all your parts and the motor is already built...a piston swap may be more of a headache than a performance upgrade at this point. A vortech install without instructions could be a difficult endeavor, for starters, I would call Vortech, tell them what kit you have and ask for the instructions...pay a couple bucks for them if necessary.

  12. #10

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    Sgt,

    I'll call you by your rank because I don't have a first name yet (hint, hint), I forgot to thank you for your service in the first post, apologies and thanks bunch! You'll find a number of active duty service guys on the board here, two that come to mind right away are Garry (Smokin04) and Jim (Helomech). Garry and Jim please jump in and share your build experiences and also your thoughts about the various packages and their smiles per mile factor so to speak. Totally unrelated but of value in your build effort, if your base has a toy shop depending on the quality of the shop and the toys inside it can be a big help in your build.

    A couple of thoughts on your planned build;

    Turbo and Centri builds are not bolt on events even when you have the whole kit and the instructions. Garry and Jim have one each. Garry's is a Turbo and Jim's is a big Centri. Both are very high quality builds and took some considerable effort. I'll let each of them dig more into the effort required. A PD blown version of the motor tends to be a bolt on event using just OEM parts that can be sourced from guys who have gone turbo or centri. Simplicity-wise the PD blower will work you less during the build phase. Performance wise the turbo and centri blowers will have a ferocious midrange and top end. Beauty is, in this case anyhow, always in the eye of the owner. All three will put a big smile on your face.

    The 600 HP target you have is relatively easy to hit no matter which path you take and for the most part not terribly destructive to the WAP block you are planning on using - as long as it is a FWHP figure. You will quickly switch from FWHP measurements to RWHP measurements as your search for power continues. Like almost everyone on here (there are a few exceptions) wherever you start I can almost guarantee you will go bigger. Because of that phenomena you are going to want to build with head room rather than max out your initial build parts.

    The one part in particular that I have concerns about is the Mach I WAP block you are using as the foundation for your build. At 600 FWHP that block is fine. As you go up from there the block becomes a tender spot that is failure prone. There are two escape paths from the problem. One is to use one of the new Aluminator or BOSS 5.0 blocks. Both can take a ferocious beating HP wise. The iron BOSS is the stronger of the two but brings about 50 lbs of additional weight to your front end. The second path is to find a Teksid block. These were used in Lincolns and Cobras up through, I believe '99. These blocks make excellent platforms to build big power numbers off of. An added bonus, for the time being is that they are less expensive when completed (at least for the time being) than the other two alternatives. Try to find one that does not need to be bored more than 0.010, so as to preserve as much liner strength as possible. If the block needs liners it is less expensive to find another block or use one of the FRPP Aluminator or BOSS 5.0 alternatives

    Ed

  13. #11

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    The pistons aren't in yet, so the change won't be a big deal. Ed, wow. Thanks a lot that's some awesome info. Names Dylan by the way. Haha. Thanks for the info on the military guys w/ the setups too.

  14. #12

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    The pistons aren't in yet, so the change won't be a big deal. Ed, wow. Thanks a lot that's some awesome info. Names Dylan by the way. Haha. Thanks for the info on the military guys w/ the setups too. I really don't plan on ever goin over 600 to the crank, but you're absolutely right, I'm sure that may very well change once the boost bug hits. I have the manual for the install, I just need to figure out how to do it w/ the separate I.C. if it falls apart ill take it to the shop, but I'm gonna give it a go. I try to do all of it myself cuz it (sounds lame) makes me bond w/ the car and I love working on it. Thanks again for all the awesome info. Helps a lot

  15. #13
    Moving on up... Array Smokin04's Avatar
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    To say that bonding with your car is lame...IS LAME! Every guy on has bonded, is currently bonding, or will bond with their cars in the near future. Since the pistons are already out and easily swappable...if they're willing to make a trade, a bump in compression to 9-9.5:1 would make for a little more grunt off-idle and down low. For use with a Vortech, and low boost (under 21-30 psi) I would DEFINITELY bump the compression to at least 9:1. If it helps -11.5cc dish with stock cobra gaskets and heads yields 9.2:1 compression. That's what I used in my build. I just got home myself dude...was at the KGZ for 6 months and change.

  16. #14

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    yeah, not that it is lame, just sounded lame to say it. haha. KGZ? Kyrgyzstan? I loved that place! lol and welcome back

  17. #15

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    i'm gonna call em today and see if they'll swap to 11.5cc dish. i'll let you guys know.

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