Quicktime_GT Engine / Turbo Build - Page 3

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  1. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Quicktime_GT View Post
    I set down at the Gibtec bar today and told them to hit me with the Ed Special.

    • 3.562 (Teksid cylinder bores were a bit eccentric)
    • On Center
    • Target 10.5 - 11.0:1
    • Non Coated

    There is a bit of material that will come off of the heads as we clean them up, so I’m not sure where the CR will end up being. Once I confirm total cc perhaps I can call gibtec and work to finalize some detail regarding where CR will be.

    Congrats Neil! I understand those Ed Specials are real nice You picked all the right options.

    Unless you get crazy with the head milling I would not worry about the change in compression ratio. Normally you only want the shop to take the smallest cut necessary to clean up the gasket surface which is at best a couple thousandths. If you start milling the heads 0.010" or more you will begin to experience fitment problems where the rocker covers meet the front timing cover.

    If the gasket surface is flat and just dirty from old gasket material or stuff like copper-seal, you don't need to mill the head. Go down to the parts store get a bottle or two of Brake-Clean and some rags and just wash the gasket surface clean.


    Ed

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  3. #32

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    Thanks, Ed..

    A small detail on my mind this morning are head studs.

    Looking back at old notes, the set I have and had been running were ARP's 156-4301. I'm tied up at them moment but believe these are 8740 vs 2000. In the diesel truck world "custom age" material is offered as a step above 2000, however, I'm not seeing that available. I'll followup in a few with more detail.

  4. #33

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    256-4201 are the ARP 2000 fasteners for the 4v, Custom Age 625+ I believe is going to be a special order. Honestly though, no real need to go that route as the 2000 series will work just fine. I'm sure Ed can elaborate a bit more on the custom age parts.

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  6. #34

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    Just spoke with the folks at ARP. Custom age is not available for modular ford simply because there hasn't been a demand for that.

    Also, to confirm:

    • 156-4301 - 8740 material, 200,000psi
    • 256-4201 – 2000 material, 220,000psi

    So, I suppose I'll order a set of 256-4201s. I also confirmed that ordering a set of studs only vs the entire kit would not be cheaper.

    Anywho.. I'd sell my set of 8740 studs on the cheap if someone wants them.

  7. #35

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    Neil , the 625+ studs are custom order. This is a pic of a 625+ Modmotor Head Stud

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    These studs cost $3,000 from ARP because they are custom order.


    Like Jim suggested the ARP 2000 studs work just fine. In fact they are way more than adequate. If you must have the 625+ stud it will lighten your wallet by approximately $3,000.



    Ed

  8. #36

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    Thanks, Ed..

    Although I have a set of the 8740 studs, I think I'm going to spend the extra money to order a set of the 2000s for a bit of peace of mind. Head gasket failures are no fun with these engines..
    Last edited by Quicktime_GT; 04-08-2016 at 05:10 PM.

  9. #37

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    The pistons showed up today..

    Overall they were packaged well and presented nicely. I had a specific conversation about skirt coating and stated that I did not want it, maybe there was a bit of misunderstanding in communication.. No big deal.







    Last edited by Quicktime_GT; 04-25-2016 at 08:56 PM.

  10. #38
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    those gibtecs look amazing!

  11. #39

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    Very nice Neil! Nick does an exceptional job for us.

    Your pistons are extraordinary like all the stuff out of Gibtec. Wait 'till you start to do your assembly. When you put the rod and pin in place, the fit between the two pin towers uses virtually every bit of pin length for piston support. The clearance between the rod and the pin bosses will be something like 0.030 of an inch! The skirts, like you have already shown in the pics are robust in the extreme and the piston uses a full skirt cylinder wall loading to spread the thrust loads over as wide a cylinder wall surface as possible — helps reduce liner cracking.

    A number of the guys have asked if they can install the pistons with less than 0.0045" clearance. The answer is yes but do not go below 0.004". Even at 0.004" the engine will be showroom quiet.

    BTW when you assemble the engine be sure to use TotalSeal's QuickSeat dry film cylinder wall lubricant. You can buy it at Jegs and Summit. It will do amazing stuff for break in and cylinder wall finish. This is what QuickSeat looks like;

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    All you need is the little package for your build. It costs somewhere around ~$22.

    As long as we are talking about break-in, use Shell's Rotella 15W 40 oil for your break-in. It is a Diesel oil with high sulphur and zinc levels that will be friendly to the rings and cylinders during break-in. It is similar in formulation to the high dollar break-in oils but you can find it in Wallmart at Wallmart prices. After break-in use the synthetic of your choice but don't go too light in the oil weight department. When Ford spec'd 5W 20 for the engines originally, it was for meeting emissions and CAFE fuel consumption targets. The new high end Coyote engines use similar clearances to what we do but are coming with much heavier oil recommendations. A 10W 30 or 15W 40 is not an unreasonable oil weight for after break-in use.


    Ed


    p.s. If you have not already, take a look at your pin boss oilers. The two holes in your oil land adjacent to your pin bore do not direct the oil to the oil pan. They direct the oil to the pin bores and use two entry ports with elongated delivery paths in the pin bore to encourage oil delivery and dissipation in and about the pin and its bore.
    Last edited by eschaider; 04-24-2016 at 03:23 AM. Reason: Added postscript

  12. #40
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    Beautiful pistons. I'm very curious to see where you compression ratio ends up with the dome.

  13. #41

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    It will be wherever Neil told them to place it. C/R is not a lets take a swipe and see how it works out event. It is a specified parameter from the buyer that the piston manufacturer builds to.


    Ed

  14. #42

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    Thanks, folks.. Target was 11:1..

    One interesting point is that these came out at 417 grams vs. Joe's 377 gram pieces. I assume the extra weight came from the material added to increase compression. It's no big deal to me, but worth mentioning..


    I completely forgot to have a conversation with nick about wrist pins and ended up with H13 123 gram .180 wall thickness pins. Did I screw up by not specifying a larger wall thickness? Surely a .180 H13 pin would be sufficient..

    Ed,

    There's a bit of discussion regarding how moving the piston down in the bore effects quench on the NA SVT Facebook page.. would you mind sharing your thoughts on whether this creates a detrimental effect on quench?
    Last edited by Quicktime_GT; 04-25-2016 at 07:32 AM.

  15. #43

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    More than happy to Neil.

    There is a fairly significant number of folks that believe quench is an important consideration in 4V Modmotors. Virtually every one of the proponents of this theory began their ICE (Internal Combustion Engine) experience with a wedge chambered engine. Sometimes quench and squish are used interchangeably. Although caused by the same mechanical construct / event they do different things.

    Squish is typically used to induce turbulence in the pre combustion charge to improve the uniformity of the fuel density throughout the charge. Quench is an effect used to remove heat from the combustion end gasses in an effort to avoid an abnormal combustion process in which a flame front may be started by hot combustion chamber surfaces either prior to or after normal spark ignition of the fuel air mixture. When this abnormal combustion process occurs it can consume all or part of the available combustible charge at an extremely high rate. The high rate of consumption produces the characteristic knock we recognize as detonation.

    The quenching area has a very high surface to volume ratio which provides a high performance heat sink in the combustion chamber. The quench area is the small volume defined by the flat surface on the gasket side of the cylinder head and the flat surface machined into the top of the piston. At TDC these two surfaces are separated by the engine's deck height (clearance) and the cylinder head gasket thickness. A typical wedge chambered head has a cardiac shaped bathtub combustion chamber with the spark plug in the deep end of the chamber and the quench / squish area at the far side of the bore.

    Here is a pic of that type of chamber complete with the cardiac shaping;

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    The grey arrow at the bottom left of the pic points to the quench area opposite the plug.

    As the mixture is ignited and burns towards the shallow end of the chamber there is a considerable amount of radiant energy dissipated and focussed on the unburnt fuel at the far side of the chamber. The radiant energy heats the unburnt charge and the advancing flame front and combustion byproducts additionally compress that unburnt charge. Gasoline has an auto ignition temperature of 477˚F at atmospheric temperature. In the combustion chamber we are way over 477˚F and atmoheric pressure in order to produce power. As the temperature and pressure rises that very thin unburnt slice of fuel and air trapped at the far side of the chamber between the piston and the head acts like a paper towel that wicks away water on a counter top. The difference is it is wicking away heat to prevent the autoignition of the yet unburnt fuel in the chamber.

    Pretty cool stuff!! When heat dissipation capacity, heat generation capacity and chamber geometry are right this little phenom makes lots of power and reduces / eliminates knock. So isn't this important in our engines? As luck would have it, it is not only not important but it does not exist for pentroof chambered heads and hemi heads, because they don't need it! They don't need it because of a small bore and their centrally located spark plug(s).

    Don't need it, well why do we have it? The simple answer is we don't. The more complicated answer has to do with our small bore size, centrally located spark plug, short distance from the plug to the extremities of the chamber and the inherently good combustion qualities of the pent roof chamber design. Additionally when you do the total area and volume to surface area calculation for our 'quench area' it is simply insufficient to produce any effective quench for anti-knock purposes. The hell you say! We have two little diamond shaped eye brow gizmos that are right at the edge of our combustion chamber. Yup, but too small to have any effect and Ford knows it.

    Although we do have those little 'eye brows' they should be removed when your heads are ported. This is a pic of a 4V F1 head. Notice there are no eyebrows between the intake or exhaust valves!

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    Now this is a pic of a two week old ported and prepped head from Fox Lake that we just received;

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    Can you see any similarity in the chamber shapes?

    Well if Ford knows it why do they use these mini quench areas anyway? They do and they don't!?!?

    What I mean is it appears in a 4.6L and 5.0L package because the physical limits of the envelope the engine has to fit into essentially force the short deck height and a lot of internal geometry compromises. One of the reasons we don't see all kinds of stroker cranks for the 4.6 and 5.0 engines is that there is no room to fit them into the block. Ford has packaged the 4.6 and 5.0 versions of the engine so tightly we can't significantly increase displacement by either boring or stroking the engine. The 5.933" long 4.6 rod allows a fairly strong intake signal at the intake valve without pulling any part of the wrist pin out of the bottom of the block or hitting the crank with a piston, although they come close. The compression height of 1.221" allows a decent ring package without having to let the wrist pin into the oil ring land. If you want both you get a 0.012" deck height.

    Yea, but it still has quench with only 0.012" of deck. Well technically speaking it has a mechanical construction that looks like a quench area but it really does not because it is so small and it is not required. Really? Yup! Think small bore and centrally located plug.

    Consider this for a moment. The 5.4L version of the engine has a piston to deck height of, guess what? If you guessed -0.012 or thereabouts you missed it by a country mile. The 5.4L version of the engine has a deck height that is 0.172" below the block deck! Yup 0.172" — almost 3/16" of an inch. This is not a quench area no matter how you want to slice the cake. Now compare that to the -0.050" deck height I had Gibtec build into the pistons for us. The Gibtecs are not even close to the -0.172" of the 5.4 engine and the Gibtecs have no quench. Think small bore and centrally located plug, again.

    What you do get with the Gibtecs is an extraordinary amount of PTV clearance, additional in bore piston stability because of the added leverage the piston skirts have with the higher pin placement, the nice flame propagation a flat top or gently domed piston provides along with a quiet running engine.

    Now you already have your pistons Neil, so you are in line to experience all those benefits and more that I haven't spoken to in this write up. However, anyone who goes to Gibtec can spec their own piston any way they want and Gibtec will make it that way, just for them! My bet is they will not be able to improve upon the ModFords package Gibtec will build for them, if they just tell the Gibtec guys the compression ratio they want, the bore size they want and (if they are using a different stroke) the stroke and rod length they have.

    Most guys get Shanghaied trying to spec out the pistons for their engine. The job is already done for you by the Gibtec guys and me for you so you don't need to get Shanghaied. Of course everyone is entitled to build to his own drummer's beat — after all they are paying the bills. If they want the short way home they will do exactly what you did and I'll bet dollars to donuts they can't improve on what you have. They can change it but that is not necessarily an improvement.


    Ed
    Last edited by eschaider; 04-26-2016 at 12:55 AM. Reason: Spelling & Grammar

  16. #44

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    [QUOTE=Quicktime_GT;2180017]... One interesting point is that these came out at 417 grams vs. Joe's 377 gram pieces. I assume the extra weight came from the material added to increase compression. It's no big deal to me, but worth mentioning ... /QUOTE]

    You read the tea leaves exactly correct Neil. Joe's were essentially flat tops, they actually had a very slight dish that went from edge to edge. The naked eye would have a hard time seeing it but a six inch scale across the top of the piston would make it obvious. Your pistons have a gentle crown.

    Ed

  17. #45

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    So... a few updates.

    I'm still moving very slow - In this case, it's no longer in response to job changes, but the fact that I'm having a baby (woo?)

    I've got the engine tore down and find that interestingly enough, the crankshaft end play and the fact that this engine hadn't already let go completely is only the result of magic. The crankshaft end play is ridiculous, essentially 1/8" ... what's likely going on here? I'll have the main caps off and the crank out this weekend, maybe I'll figure it out then.

    I had planned to use the crank, but now I'm worried it will be chewed up..

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