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Dyno Day Results

27K views 110 replies 15 participants last post by  KEVINS 
#1 ·
Just finished making dyno pulls on the car today. To be honest the day was a little disappointing but overall there appears to be some left on the table if we can add more timing. Running 91oct and 100% Meth Injection and boost at 25psi the most timing we can have is 8*. Any more than this the knock detector was showing KR and would pull timing. We added 2* and made 30hp but there was knock so we dropped the timing back down.

So here are the Key Factors:
Dyno: Mustang Dyno
Boost: 25psi
Timing: 8* Total
Fuel: 91oct and 100% Meth:
Transmission: 4R70 with converter lockup.
Exhaust: 2.5" full length

=735hp

Before the end of the year we're going to use race fuel and meth then see how much HP we can get with just more timing. With just more timing we think we can get over 800hp @25psi then we can start cranking the boost up and see where the HP goes. So the 735 is a bit depressing even tho that's through the 4r70 but if we can get over 800hp with just more timing then adding boost should make some solid numbers.

ENGINE:
2V stroked to 5.1 liters 03/04 Cobra Block
Ported PI heads (p&p by HPP) The heads are ported and polished by Houston Performance.
Houston Performance Stage III Billet turbo cams.
Ported Victor Junior intake.
Intake has a 6061.com elbow and a 90mm TB.
HPX Slot style MAF

TRANSMISSION:
4R70w W/ 3000 stall Lockup and Baumann Controller.

FUEL SYSTEM:
Dual GT Supercar fuel pumps
Dual fuel delivery modules and KB boost a pump.
All braided fuel line.

TURBO KIT:
Twin 60mm Billet turbos t3/t4 .63ar.
2.5" full length exhaust with Ultra Flow muffs.

Vehicle Car Hood Motor vehicle Automotive design
 
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#2 · (Edited)
Im suprised you are not running e85. Also you might want to increase voltage to the coils with a BAS(i picked up 15-20whp from going to 16v on C&S's dyno). Coils lasted over three years+ with no problems. you can just increase the overall voltage of the car by doing a 14v conversion which charges at 16v(and get rid of the BAS AND BAP). Ive also see guys run wastegates on there exhaust to use as dumps(they seal up unlike cutouts). So when the car hits desired opening psi it opens up and gets rid of some backpressure. Just giving you some ideas to hit your 800 mark.

I wouldnt be to sad i went from 766whp to 580whp @ 15psi going from a manual to a th400 back in the day with my 4.6L sohc.. now days im making over 1000whp through the th400 on my 4.6 dohc without pushing it to the limits..


btw i use your suspension....and hook without any issues. :)
 
#3 ·
Im suprised you are not running e85. Also you might want to increase voltage to the coils with a BAS(i picked up 15-20whp from going to 16v on C&S's dyno). Coils lasted over three years+ with no problems. you can just increase the overall voltage of the car by doing a 14v conversion which charges at 16v(and get rid of the BAS AND BAP). Ive also see guys run wastegates on there exhaust to use as dumps(they seal up unlike cutouts). So when the car hits desired opening psi it opens up and gets rid of some backpressure. Just giving you some ideas to hit your 800 mark.

I wouldnt be to sad i went from 766whp to 580whp @ 15psi going from a manual to a th400 back in the day with my 4.6L sohc.. now days im making over 1000whp through the th400 on my 4.6 dohc without pushing it to the limits..

btw i use your suspension....and hook without any issues. :)
I have no desire to run e85. It's too much of a street car so I don't want to mess with checking the fuel or the fuel mileage.
Good info about the extra voltage, thank You! I'd LOVE to get rid of the BAP and get some decent fuel pumps in it but it will have to wait until next year.

The car initially had a tune that made 720hp on 93oct @20psi with a manual trans and on a Dynojet. On that same tune and the 4r70 and the Mustang Dyno the car only made 598hp. On the earlier tunes it made 650hp @ 17.5psi so he made some great progress.

ks
 
#5 ·
I don't know that it will hit 1000hp but I'd certainly be happy with 900hp through this 4r70.:thumb3:

ks
 
#7 ·
Everything, but I'm not sure what all that means. It's Silver Fox's "4R950" but it still retains full automatic shifting which is controlled with Baumanns new Quick4 trans controller and a Precision Industries multi-disc converter.

ks
 
#9 ·
He said he did but the meth was still spraying all it was worth so couldn't add more timing.
I now have some 112oct that will be going in it then it's back on the dyno in a few weeks to see what it will do with more timing.

ks
 
#10 ·
Id ditch the meth and skip the 112. just go straight to c16 and be done with it. What are the iat temps? Only 700 on 25 psi is not very good........Something is bottle necked in the turbo kit. There is a reason for the car not wanting the timing. Hot side back pressure?
 
#11 ·
You're reading it all wrong. 700 @ 25PSI with only 8* of timing. We were limited on the timing b/c there was knock with more than 8* of timing. That's why there's no more power than there was. It WANTS more timing. Every 2* of timing we pulled was worth about 30HP. Running a higher octane will allow more timing/boost.

ks
 
#13 ·
Thanks for the info. Currently the 112 is simply to flush the 91 out of the tank. Once that's all gone I'll look into C16 for the dyno pulls.

KS
 
#15 ·
Thank you! It's showing potential anyway.:dance4:

The turbos are custom built by Brian Bisonette. All I know is they are a T3/T4, 60mm billets with an .63AR and will support over 1000rwhp "without breathing hard" according to him.

The "kit" is custom made (it's a pos) but is getting all redone over the winter. I'll be having CG Fab make me a set of custom headers to be used with smaller hot side piping that I'll do this winter. I've concluded that a small 900hp 5.0L motor running twins doesn't need 2.5" hot side piping for each turbo so to help spool time and bring the torque in sooner I'm going smaller on the hot side.

ks
 
#17 · (Edited)
I'll be redoing all the piping for the hot side and maybe the cold side. The hot side pre-turbo will be smaller (probably 2 1/8" instead of 2.5"). To run the 2 1/8" pipes I'll have to custom make V-band flanges since I can't find anyone that make them that size. I also need to see what size clamps will work with the smaller OD on the flanges. I may have to make the flanges with the same OD as 2.25" but just make the ID smaller for the 2 1/8" pipe.

I'm wanting to put the stock front springs and front swaybar back in the car if at all possible so the hot side post turbo will be whatever I can do to fit piping in it even if I have to run multiple pipes in place of a single down pipe. But' I'll have to see where I have room before making that decision and I'm sure it will be a pita to do.

ks
 
#19 · (Edited)
It's not about the largest pipe but what will flow more air and what I can get to fit.
For example: If I can't get the 3" pipes to fit around the swaybar and coil springs then I may have a single 3" off the turbo that splits into two 2.5" or 2.25" pipes or something like this. I haven't done all the calculations yet but just keeping my mind open on what may be needed to get it all to fit.

Currently I have 3" DP's off each turbo where each one feeds into a 2.5" pipe at the back of the motor which then runs full length out the back of the car.

I wish I new more people running smaller hot side piping to see what others have been able to do so I can see how small I can go.

ks
 
#20 ·
Yeah, you just don't want to go smaller overall behind the turbos. Obviously you want that cross sectional area as large as possible without a ton of bends. That's why when you said you were making the hotside smaller, I was curious as to what parts of the hotside.
 
#21 ·
I just wish this was a 4V motor. Things would be sooo much nicer than what this 2V can give me, but it should be fun nonetheless.

ks
 
#23 · (Edited)
Do your cars make boost that fast in high gear? Mine certainly doesn't. My car has had two different tunes from two different tuners from different states and the spool has always been slow. HPP tuned it with 57mm's and it didn't start making boost until 3800rpm in third gear but that was with a 5speed. Now with the 60mm it doesn't start making boost until 4200rpm in second gear with a 3000 stall. I don't have any answers, I wish I did. I'm hoping that the new hot side will fix a lot of the lag issues.

Here's one of the dyno graphs. At about 5500rpm is where the knock gauge lit up so he let out of it: 25psi, 10* timing. Don't look at the boost "ramp" b/c the Eboost was programmed to ramp in boost real slow to minimize the boost spike on the dyno and KR. With that said it starts to make about 4psi at around 4000/4200.

I always figured that a 4v will have more exhaust energy than a 2v to spin the turbos.

Rectangle Slope Font Plot Parallel
 
#24 ·
Isnt the black line showing boost. If so it's making 5.932psi at 3500rpm.

Mine trapped 139.99mph running 15psi from the 1/8 and 12psi to the 1/8 with 246/255 cams.
 
#25 · (Edited)
Wow, thanks for noticing that. The first day it wasn't making any boost and when I picked up the car on the second day I asked him if it was any better and he said not really. Obviously I never paid any attention to the graph especially since I hope to have a better one in a few weeks.

ks
 
#26 ·
I think some of it is the tune (mainly the ignition timing). Your Eboost could be doing it also. If those turbos are 60mm and with the auto, it should spool faster with the right converter. What size is the exhaust wheel? With today's turbo wheel technology, etc., a turbo with that size compressor wheel shouldn't spool slowly.

Your turbos are larger than the HP "60mm" turbos.

The 2Vs actually should spool turbos faster because of increased air velocity vs. the 4V. I don't think a smaller up-pipe is going to gain you much sppol. Maybe the converter needs to be re-stalled.
 
#27 · (Edited)
I think some of it is the tune (mainly the ignition timing). Your Eboost could be doing it also. If those turbos are 60mm and with the auto, it should spool faster with the right converter. What size is the exhaust wheel? With today's turbo wheel technology, etc., a turbo with that size compressor wheel shouldn't spool slowly.

Your turbos are larger than the HP "60mm" turbos.

The 2Vs actually should spool turbos faster because of increased air velocity vs. the 4V. I don't think a smaller up-pipe is going to gain you much sppol. Maybe the converter needs to be re-stalled.
No clue on the exhaust wheel. I just told him all the details of the combo including that I would prefer to push a smaller turbo harder to speed spoolup for street use, and the HP goal of 950rwhp, and he built the turbos.

The converter is tighter than what most would use (it's loose up to 2800 where it starts to couple) but I wanted to be able to foot brake it into boost if possible and a loose converter won't do that well. Plus if the car would build boost fast enough then I wouldn't need a higher stall...combo, combo... Of course all my planning could be all wrong, too.

Hopefully we can learn a lot from the dyno sessions this year so next year we can redo it and make "better" power with this winters upgrades.

I wish mine would perform as yours did before you swapped turbos. I was hoping to see what your car would run like with the smaller turbos.

ks
 
#28 ·
I also only run E85. It helps with spooling also. Higher stalling converter speeds up spooling and would make it easier to foot brake. Still dont think your "issue" are the up-pipes.
 
#29 ·
I agree on all points. My converter was initially really tight and I couldn't hardly foot brake it at all without it breaking loose. Also, the intake manifold plays a huge part in it too. Short runners will cause slower spool-up. I'm not familiar with the 2V intakes though.
 
#30 ·
Thanks gents. I agree with all that's been said. The cold side piping is large at 3.5" and is probably attributing to it. Unfortunately it's too difficult to pinpoint one item that could be causing the slow spoolup without replacing everything to find the culprit. Maybe it's all those little things that are adding up to it, too. In addition, I misspoke about when it actually starts to spool since the graph shows it making some boost around 3500. The Eboost spoolup setting is set very low so maybe this is where most of my problem lies with this new tune. I"ll get to play with it this weekend and hopefully I'll be more impressed. The next dyno day with the race fuel should be very interesting and more telling.

Induction side:
Cams are HPP Racing Stage 3 Turbo cams with unknown specs.
Stage 3 Ported PI heads w/ port matched Vic Jr.
90mm 6061 elbow
90mm TB
3.5" MAF pipe
Large Treadstone IC with 3" outlet.

ks
 
#31 ·
Well, the cams/intake combo could be a big part of the slow spool. Like you kind of alluded to, everything needs to be matched up for it to work like you want. Like already mentioned, a looser converter will flash higher and get the turbos going. In your case, I bet it would make a huge difference given the huge cams and short runner intake.

Also, I don't think the 3.5" piping is affecting much of anything one way or the other. It's not necessary though since your IC outlet is 3"-other than having a larger cross sectional area for a larger MAF. I wouldn't mess with that piping if the MAF and everything is working fine.
 
#32 ·
Good to hear your thoughts on the MAF pipe. Cosmetically it looks great being 3.5" so I don't really want to change that if it's not needed.
Too many unknowns at this point but I'll lean on it harder with better fuel in a few weeks to see if some things can be answered.

Did you ever get your car done yet? Last I read you were upgrading the electronics?

ks
 
#34 ·
You should set the controller to ramp the boost as fast as possible and see how it acts.
I'd be more worried about what is causing the hp to fall off so badly. Graph shows it was seeing the boost but yet the hp was
falling. Mine would peak around 6500rpm and still not just drop past that.
Once I leave the line my car never sees below 5500 rpm. I swapped my .48 exhaust housings for the .63 years ago to slow the spooling some. Even right now I have no traction in 1st or 2nd on the street once boost hits. I have to roll into it in 2nd.

This graph was from ported hardball'r intake, 232/230 cams ported PI heads running on 93 and meth and the same 60mm turbos. I had a C4 transmission with a really high stalling converter. This was with my original HP hotside which was short headers to 2.5" uppipes and 2.5" downpipes. My primaries now on the longtubes headers are 1 3/4".
 
#35 · (Edited)
Yea, I'll set the ramp up rate on kill this week and see how it responds.
I'm not sure where you're seeing the HP fall off at on my graph but if it's around 5500 that's where the knock happened and the Safeguard was set to pull 2* of timing for every indication of knock pulling a max of 20* if needed. I know on one run he just kept his foot into it to see what the power would be like just letting the Safeguard do it's job. This may be the graph for that run.

ks
 
#36 ·
Kevin, IMHO I think you have a few issues going on but I have some questions first. Did you log the fuel pressure and injector cycle for the pulls? Is the fuel system returnless/ return style if so what is the base pressure set to? What boost controller, what wastegate springs(lbs) and what wastegates are you using? Looking at your dyno and where the knock is with only 8* timing...that's not good.
 
#41 ·
We did not log Fuel psi or inj's.
It's a returnless system with 2 GT Super Pumps and a BAP.:thongue2:
No clue on base fuel psi.
EBoost2 controller
EMUSA Waste Gates. I took them apart and there wasn't any issues that I could see and they looked to be sealing good.
WG's have a 10lbs spring and a second unknown spring. The absolute minimum amount of boost I can run is 17.5psi so I'm guessing the second springs are about 8lb springs.

ks

- - - Updated - - -

Speaking of the fuel system..... I had twin GT pumps when I first started tuning the car. They ran out of steam at 525rwhp through a manual trans. This was on E85 with no BAP. I'd keep an eye on things because they sure didn't live up to what I expected and had researched.
That doesn't surprise me with E85. So far I haven't been limited on fueling especially since we are dialing back the injectors and making up for it by spraying more meth. Next year it will be getting a second nozzle since I couldn't spray enough with just one.

ks
 
#37 ·
What exactly does A/R size play on a turbo. I never really understood what it means but smaller spools quicker but limits power.
My car has a single 80mm with a .96 A/R and he has twins with .63's
 
#38 · (Edited)
The lower the A/R # the faster the spool, but unfortunately it will also limit the power by increasing the backpressure. So basically it will keep the velocity up from the heads and along with the heat it will spin the turbine, but if it cannot escape fast enough it will stall the speed of the turbine(backpressure) and work like as a pneumatic brake and limit the turbine wheel speed also affecting the cold side by not being able to speed up the compressor side.
 
#39 ·
a/r is area ratio. in simple terms it is the area ratio of the turbine "nozzle"(where exhaust exits the scroll) to the id of the outlet( exducer diameter+ clearance).

so a 1.0 ar means the scroll exit is the same area( square inch, mm etc) as the exhaust outlet of the housing

if it is .69 the scroll exit is smaller than the housing outlet(69% to be excact)
and a 1.32 means the scroll area is bigger than the housing outlet
 
#44 ·
Thank you. Mine is a .96 so now I fully understand what that means.
 
#40 ·
Speaking of the fuel system..... I had twin GT pumps when I first started tuning the car. They ran out of steam at 525rwhp through a manual trans. This was on E85 with no BAP. I'd keep an eye on things because they sure didn't live up to what I expected and had researched.
 
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