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Teksid/10.5:1/Cams/2.8 Mammoth/E85

16K views 63 replies 18 participants last post by  eschaider 
#1 ·
Just thought I would make a thread outlining my new motor setup. Currently being built by MPR in Boynton Beach, FL. Should be done in a couple weeks


10.5:1 Diamond Flat top
Comp Custom Blower Cams 230*/232* .495 lift
Brian Tooley Valve Springs
Teksid Block
Stock Cobra Crank/Rods
2.8L Kenne Bell Mammoth
E85
05+ Revised 9 Thread Heads






Pro Motion Built T56
Fully Built IRS
Ford Racing Diff Cover
FTBR Delrin Bushing
FTBR HD Toe Link Bars
Eaton Tru-Trac
3.27 gears


Still need to sort out the fuel system..concerned about a huge return style fuel system heating up the fuel under the hot Miami sun as this car will be 99% street and cruising.


What I have now is...
Fore Hat
Fore Rails
Bosch 105lb/hr Injectors
10AN lines
 
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#3 ·
Sounds like a close copy of my engine, except for the cam lift.
 
#4 · (Edited)
I would have opted for less lift, but got a pretty good deal on the cams... they were speced for a 2.9 Whipple crusher, ported heads, E85 and 10:1...almost same setup..im debating porting the heads...I'm leaning against it...just not sure its necessary for my power goals...how did you get to 10.7:1? did you have to do a dome?

Very nice - another Aluminum block build done right. I'm hope this one lasts much longer for you than your last one.
Yeah I hope so too,,,i wish i fixed that last motor instead of selling the car... i always wanted a white coupe though so it was probably meant to be....
 
#5 ·
Tim at MPR will do you right! He knows the mod motors like no other. As far as your heads go, choose wisely. Tim will suggest a particular person to port your heads and I would advise against it. I don't want to name drop or sound like i'm "bashing" but I did not have good luck with this person on 2 separate occasions with my 4V heads. Feel free to PM me if you wanted more info.

Jon
 
#6 ·
Any ideas about the fuel system...has anyone tried to support 900rwhp on E85 on returnless?
I am concerned about a big return system heating up the fuel but cycling it around..since this is a street car and will see less than WOT 1% of it's life
What about running staggered pumps? like a second or 3rd pump coming online only during boost...is this reliable?
 
#7 ·
The big issue with returnless systems is more the hesitation that occurs with manual transmission cars during rapid gear changes. More often than not the driver lifts on the gas defensively just in case he misses a shift. The lifting and then rapid reapplication of full throttle sends the OEM PCM into a confused state of "mind". The early fly by wire military combat aircraft experienced similar problems because the control systems logic monitoring and managing the pilots control surface commands from the "stick" in the cock pit would over react to the pilot's frequently rapid commands during combat maneuvers.

The phenomena is similar to smoothing the dyno data before plotting when you dyno your car. You have various smoothings that you can apply to the data to produce the graphic on the dyno monitor or printout. If you pick too little smoothing the trace is ragged and choppy. If you pick too much, important spikes you watch for are lost to over smoothing. Same thing with the fuel delivery system and your right foot on gear changes except Ford used too little smoothing.

There is an excellent write up by Jerry from Sutton Performance (I believe) in the TToC. Click here to read about the fix => Returnless Hesitation Fix A high volume, high horsepower fuel system on the street is far more attractive with a returnless supply model than a return style supply model where you have to bypass virtually all of the fuel all of the time.

At 50 mph you need about 12 maybe 15 HP to propel the car. If you have a 900 HP fuel system that means your return line needs to be as big as your feed line because 98% of the time you will be bypassing 98% (885/900) of your fuel back to the tank. You will heat this fuel and with gasoline you will boil off the light ends that are used to produce the octane rating. E-85 by law can be anywhere between, I believe 35/40% ethanol to 70% ethanol, and still be called E-85. With E-85, you will reduce the potentially high percentage of gas base stock to a very low octane number reducing the over all octane of the fuel and potentially risking detonation with a return style system - especially in a hot climate.

Check out Jerry's fix, let your tuner know of it and ask him to modify your tune to incorporate the fix.

Ed
 
#9 ·
Motor is _finally_ done, I stuck to the original plan only thing I changed as adding the FordGT Rockers, there was an issue with the crankshaft..It was slightly twisted causing the back two pistons to be 20 thou in the hole.. I had to get the crank replaced. ... another Shop is scheduled to drop in the motor and start putting the car back together Tuesday.

For the fuel system I just ordered the 1200hp return system from Lethalperformance, minus the hat, rails which I already have, hoping that the fittings will fit the Fore Hat and Rails I already have. I will then run two pumps, with the 2nd one coming on via hobbs switch. To control heating up the fuel I am considering doing a staggerd pump setup where 1 340lph runs all the time and a 465lph come on under boost.

- - - Updated - - -

Pics from the builder...







 
#12 ·
Thanks Ed, Definitely will

Nice setup
Thanks

More data - after CC-ing the heads Final Compression actually turned out to be 10.62 to 1 :)


- - - Updated - - -

Should make some serious steam. What type of blower rpm do you plan on spinning the 2.8 at?
No more than the 18,000 RPM limit, but probably pretty close to that..what ever it takes to get to 800 wheel... I want this setup to live a hearty long life.
 
#13 · (Edited)
Excellent documentation habits there Hendri.

Here is essentially the same thing but in an XL spreadsheet format with some PTV graphing capability to help. It also helps reading the numbers two years later. :)

There are multiple pages with tabs for each at the bottom of the screen.


Ed
 

Attachments

#21 · (Edited)
I've been busy working on this build and gathering more parts, I had to change plans on the fuel pumps the AEM 320 I planned to run does not work the my version of the ForeHAT without significant modification to the hat since the AEM pump is a bit taller it would bottom out in my hat. SO I ended up getting two 465lphs. I also I ended up having to get a new clutch and flywheel insert for the Fidanza. Another thing I did is clean up the mammoth intake there is a thread on SVTP where one of the Gt500 guys tested back to back picked up over 60Hp/tq cleaning up the mammoth inlet. I also sold the twin 75mm Throttle body and got the Big 2150CFM 168MM SingleBlade...Kenne Bell claims 40-50HP gain over the twin 75mm at higher boost levels, I will be happy if it does 20hp.




Motor is in..Fuel system almost complete


Had to make a custom mount for the throttle cable alignment bracket did not fit since the fitting for the return line is now in the way.


Kennebell Monoblade TB installed


Regulator is installed, needed a custom bracket also. Had to move the IAC and mount it here on a AN fitting



Pretty cool racecar at the shop




First fillup on E85 :rock:


I had to run over to Lethal Performance today to get the division X Hat for the dual 465 pumps...Thanks to Matt@lethal for excellent service...the Original Forehat would not give enough clearance..and would bottom out the pumps. The division X hat worked great with the two 465s


Got the proper fitting for breather tank...previous owner had it jimmy rigged SMH


Got the lines ran to Regulator from Tank


 
#24 · (Edited)
Cars been running for quite a while now, I have just been busy sorting out issues, many of them caused by the shop I had install the engine. When I got the car back it was eating supercharger belts, electrical issues, overheating, incorrect heat-range spark plugs threaded in with only 1/3 of the way, bolts missing, bolts over-tightened, bolts loose, bolts stripped. It's taking me literally weeks to find and fix everything... For example the shop I had install the engine stripped the bolt on the lower idler pulley bracket. So I had to extract and replace the bolt. The tuner spent a couple days trying to get it to idle, turns out the IAC motor was installed backwards...I found and fixed the bad IAC. It was slowly overheating at idle, burped it many times to no avail finally changed the stock pump to stewart water pump and replaced the cooling fan which fixed it. Also noticed about 10-15* cooler temps overall with the new pump. The battery light was on when I got the car back from the shop, the tuner said it was OK since voltage was good during WOT??? I went through the car today and it seems the ground strap is missing so I am putting on one. Also re-ran the battery cable was only a 2 Gauge so I installed a 0/2 Gauge today.

With the 3.5" pulley it made 20.7psi vs 17-18psi it with same pulley setup on stock motor. So I picked up about 3psi boost with same pulleies even with the big cams.. the porting and TB definitely made a difference. Once i get the car sorted out on "low boost" I will be throwing the 3" pulley on there which will effectively spin the 2.8 Blower to it's max rated 18,000rpm @ 6700 engine rpm.



Pullied for 18psi (3.5/2lb), seeing 20psi. Aborted run at 6500 getting spark issues after 6000rpm.. Was not able to to pull to 6900rpm redline,

- - - Updated - - -



I Got a Kenne Bell Boost-a-Spark to install this week. Even with the plugs gapped at .022 still getting blow out in the upper RPMS

Forgot to mention I also tried to make a pass at the local 1/8th track which resulted in me immediatly breaking the driver-side stock half-shaft. To add insult to injury. The outer splines on the half shaft twisted making it impossible for me to remove it from the rear spindle, even heating it up with a torch and using a 50 ton press didn't budge the axle since it twisted the splines... This required me to spend big bucks on a whole new rear spindle assembly in addition to a new half-shaft...I got everything installed already. I won't be making any more passes till i upgrade the halfshafts and hubs...28 splines ain't gunna cut it at this power level...I am worried the splines on the passenger side halfshaft are also twisted requiring me to buy a entire passenger side spindle assemblly when I go to change the half/shaft
 
#25 ·
A couple days ago the steering wheel got very sloppy about 3-4 inches of play before the wheel moves, so today I had someone turn the wheel while i watched underneath the car...I noticed immediate;y previous owner tried to repair the upper portion steering shaft with a UGLY tack-weld which has broken loose. So today i ordered the MM steering shaft which should be here later this week
 
#26 ·
Congratulations on a well fought long and it would appear at times more than a little challenging build, Hendri!

You are on the far side of the build curve now, with excellent numbers. The spark blow out challenge with the stock COPs is maddening. They are marginal at higher boost levels and steal power from the engine. I will be interested to see what the final solution turns out to be for your build.

BTW in case I didn't mention it — very nice job!


Ed
 
#27 ·
I make well over 1000whp on stock coils. You should not be blowing the spark out at that power or boost level.

Gap the plugs down to .018" and if you are still having issues, it's something else.
 
#28 ·
I make well over 1000whp on stock coils. You should not be blowing the spark out at that power or boost level.

Gap the plugs down to .018" and if you are still having issues, it's something else.
Ignition adequacy can be an elusive ghost to track down, Tony. Our stock cops are only around 20 millijoules of energy. In a supercharged environment the ignition's ability to light the mixture in the chamber at TDC firing can be reduced by the boost, engine speed and density of the charge. The higher the boost, engine speed and charge density the greater the challenge.

When Mallory still made magnetos we had progressively run through their Mallory Mag -2, -4, and -6 units. The dash numbers roughly corresponded to the magneto generator's amperage. The -6 never got to a 6 amp generator capability. With each upgrade to the next hotter mag we could burn more fuel at the same blower overdrive and the car would respond by going both quicker and faster. When we finally switched to the 44 Amp MSD Pro Mag the additional fuel we were capable of burning required an upgrade to a larger fuel pump.

As our cops age they tend to fade a bit in terms of output. By adjusting fueling you can introduce stronger or weaker ignition events. When you accelerate the fueling you can cause the ignition to stumble and produce the kinds of torque and power traces Hendri was experiencing. The difference is in the quality of the COP, the required power of the ignition event and the density of fuel/air charge that has to be burned.

By way of comparison a OEM COP for our engine is about 20 mj, an IGN1-A Mercury Marine coil, like the Pro-Mods use, is a little over 100 mj and a MSD Pro Mag is somewhere between 800 mj and 1000 mj. While we can certainly get our COPs to run at elevated engine speeds, the hotter ignitions like the Mercury Marine coils will allow the engine to burn more fuel at higher boost pressures and higher engine speeds which translates into a higher and more reliable power delivery.

Ed
 
#29 ·
Ed,

Correct me if I am wrong but none of the aftermarket COPs direct fit setups have been found to work well?

I bought Xcops years back and they wouldn't even work past 3,000 RPMs.
 
#32 ·
Ed,

Correct me if I am wrong but none of the aftermarket COPs direct fit setups have been found to work well?

I bought Xcops years back and they wouldn't even work past 3,000 RPMs.
To the extent I am aware Bobby, you are correct. One of the challenges when you work with the OEM COPs is the integrity / quality of the ignition electronics. If they have been compromised by heat or fluids incursion over their life they will perform differently than fresh electronics, wiring and COPs.

Different people find the failure threshold at different power levels. Tony's stuff works fine for him at more than 1000 WHP, which no matter how you look at it has to be impressive. Some folks try to do everything correctly (but obviously miss something) and have difficulty far before the 1000 WHP threshold. The ignition reserve that the big ignitions provide while necessary to fire some mixtures in the extreme examples more often than not ends up providing additional 'cushion' for the system so the 'little whoopses' have to grow bigger before they effect performance.

To the extent possible it is to our advantage to use the best quality componentry, installed with care and good grounding for the best performance. Tony is an excellent example of what is possible.

You're limited with a stock PCM on what you can run. All I am saying is stock coils are good to over 1000whp and many are doing it. They are more sensitive to the amount of cylinder pressure than what type of forced induction you have. If they don't stay lit at .018, something else is wrong. Could be bad/old coils or something else.
Spot on, Tony!

Your implementation is an excellent example of how to do it right. When we are diligent and dot the i's and cross the t's the OEM solution is pretty impressive.

Ed
 
#30 ·
You're limited with a stock PCM on what you can run. All I am saying is stock coils are good to over 1000whp and many are doing it. They are more sensitive to the amount of cylinder pressure than what type of forced induction you have. If they don't stay lit at .018, something else is wrong. Could be bad/old coils or something else.
 
#31 ·
The problem with running plug gaps down that low is that you start to introduce drivability issues (misses, stumbles etc. at cruise speed.) The wider the gap you can run, the stronger the spark will be and the better it will burn the air fuel mixture. I just went through these problems on my car, it didn't like anything under .030" plug gap. I'll be switching to a Holley HP or Dominator and the Mercury Marine coils later this year, getting tired of chasing problems with the stock system. It seems that each car is different in terms of how well the stock system works.
 
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