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  1. #1
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    Default Turbo cams

    Who are some of the best guys to talk to about turbo cams? And what are the best chains and spockets on the market? Looking to order cams and and the necessary chains and spockets to degree them

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    Take a look in the Terminator Table of Contents (TToC) over in the 03/04 SVT Cobra Forum, Nick (did I guess right). In the engine section you will find two threads about cams that will be foundational to both understanding and spec'ing your cams. If you are not into the design and understanding stuff then I would suggest going to L&M Engines in Hatboro PA and asking for Michael, who owns the operation. If it makes it easier to approach a complete stranger tell him I put this post up and steered you to him.

    Michael is easily one of the very brightest designers of real custom cams. I don't mean some differing profiles off a cam manufacturers masters inventory that are packaged up and sold to you. Michael designs application specific, original profiles that are built from valve motion backwards through the finger followers and rollers to a specific lobe profile. I can count the number of guys in this country that can do that kind of development on one hand with a couple of fingers missing.

    Read the write-ups in the TToC. One is titled OK So Where do I Set My Cams? and the other is titled Cam Selection and Phasing - The How's and Why's. The cam selection and phasing will scratch the surface on cam dynamics. If you don't care for that sort of stuff go to L&M. Here is a link to their site =>L&M Engines tell Michael I steered you there, if it helps start the dialog and then tell him what you want your engine to do for you. He will not steer you wrong.


    Ed


    p.s. Didn't mean to ignore the chains and sprockets questions. Michael has both and can easily cover your needs there also. BTW all chains HD or otherwise are specialty mechanical power transmission mechanisms. They can and do show wear over time and should be replaced at regular intervals but a minimum whenever the engine get freshened and more often if the engine is regularly raced.
    Last edited by eschaider; 09-17-2016 at 12:52 PM. Reason: Spelling & Grammar

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    Senior Member Array cobraracer46's Avatar
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    I would suggest contacting John Mihovetz at Accufab racing in Ontario California as John has more experience with racing modular engines than anyone else.

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    Thank you both for your replies, but now its more than just cams. Pulling the motor. Should have it out by tonight. Then the phone calls start tomorrow. Going to try L&m first because he will rebuild what I already have. Accufabs web says they will not use my parts. My current motor already has a stroker crank and oliver billet rods that I would like to reuse. And I have a spare virgin teksid also. So hopefully micheal can help?!?!

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    You will find Michael is a straight shooter and a straight talker, Nick (am I correct?). Tell him what you have, what you want to do and listen to what he suggests. When he is done, tell him what makes the most sense to you. Michael is both experienced and impressive — in the extreme. You will be in good hands.

    Ed

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    You are correct, my name is nick. Does he have experience dealing with b headed combos? Or are all modular heads somewhat similar when it comes to specs on a cam?

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    Before the rebuild starts, I do have a question. I had this motor originally built in 2006. Its a 5.0 stroker, vt engines crank, oliver billet 5.850 rods, and cp pistons (I believe 23cc) 8.7 comp. I would like to reuse most of the parts I have, but would lime to know if there is a possibility of getting 8500rpm out of that stroke? And what would need to be addressed to get there? If I would have known what I know know now I would have stayed stock stroke. But as life goes on things change. And budgets are not what they once were when I was younger. So reusing what I have is pretty important to be able to continue to play in this hobby. Any outlook on this would be appreciated

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    Quote Originally Posted by cobranick123 View Post
    You are correct, my name is nick. Does he have experience dealing with b headed combos? Or are all modular heads somewhat similar when it comes to specs on a cam?

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    Michael has multiple decades of experience across the most popular performance engine platforms. Over the last two decades or so he has focussed on Modmotors and now the new Coyote platform. There have been multiple cylinder head choices from Ford for the engine starting with what we call the "B" heads and moving forward to the GT500 heads of today. Michael is familiar with all of them. If you put a GT500 style head on the engine you will require a custom intake manifold — something to think about because they are ~$3,500 propositions unless you can find used pieces and then you are possibly in the $2,500 price space.

    Yes and no on the cam specs. The higher in the engine speed you want to run the engine the greater the heads ultimate port flow numbers have to be or the head throttles the engine. When you get the port flow straightened out for the top of the power curve you can frequently find yourself with too much port flow and low speed performance will be sacrificed. Similarly when you optimize the head flow for low speed drivability high speed performance is muted. The cams can crutch one end or the other — somewhat. The real answer is don't race a street engine and don't daily drive a race engine.



    Quote Originally Posted by cobranick123 View Post
    Before the rebuild starts, I do have a question. I had this motor originally built in 2006. Its a 5.0 stroker, vt engines crank, oliver billet 5.850 rods, and cp pistons (I believe 23cc) 8.7 comp. I would like to reuse most of the parts I have, but would lime to know if there is a possibility of getting 8500rpm out of that stroke? And what would need to be addressed to get there? If I would have known what I know know now I would have stayed stock stroke. But as life goes on things change. And budgets are not what they once were when I was younger. So reusing what I have is pretty important to be able to continue to play in this hobby. Any outlook on this would be appreciated

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    All things being equal I prefer a stock stroke over a stroker for our engines. The block package was fairly well optimized by Ford for the bore / stroke combination the engine has. There is some wiggle room but when you go there you are opening up the reliability gremlins door. That does not mean the engine is going to go up in a mushroom shaped cloud when you run it but it does mean the engine will wear out internals more quickly and require a different maintenance regimen compared to a stock stroke engine.

    Strokers will produce more power because of the increased displacement but we are getting back to the street vs race engine issue again. If you have the stroker rotating assembly you could always sell it and go stock stroke or you could use it. The motor will work either way. In blown engines the piston skirt needs to be robust to prevent collapsing under power. When you add the increased side thrust that a stroker brings to the party the skirts take an even greater beating. It essentially boils down to a matter of preferences. As the saying goes if you don't mind it don't matter. BTW a good skirt thickness for a blower motor with short skirts like our is right around 0.190" to 0.200". If you run a supercharged engine (let alone a stroker) it would be better to have the heavy skirts than not.

    What in the world is magic about 8500 rpm? Is there some sort of award if your engine turns 8500 rpm? When you use a stoker version of the engine and spin it 8500 rpm there is lots of stuff trying to escape from the engine. Go back to a stock stoke and the same stuff is trying to escape. The big difference is how hard it is trying to escape. Stock stroke engines are simply more reliable and durable. There is a reason JM uses stock stroke cranks in his race car. With the budget he has for the race operation the cost of a stroker crank would be the equivalent of a mosquito bite on the butt of an elephant. Pregnant question becomes why doesn't he use one? The answers are reliability and it is not necessary.

    BTW if you have your heart set on 8500 rpm why stop there why not 9000 or 10,000 rpm? I sort of like 10,000 rpm, it has a nice round feel to the number. What should be important to you is that you have a good performing street engine that provides that electric motor type of throttle response to the commands of the driver's right foot. I guarantee you, that as a driver or passenger in the car, you can not tell the difference between a 7500 rpm ceiling and an 8500 rpm ceiling on the street. You will be able to tell the difference in the two when it comes to the life of the engine and also the maintenance regimen it will require however.

    Pick your poison, tell Michael which cocktail you want and let the barkeep mix up your drink. Be careful what you order or you might just get surprised.


    Ed

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    Question..... so my teksid block is already .20 over. Is it safe to go another .05 or .10 with 30 plus psi of boost 11 to 1 compression?

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    IMO the answer is absolutely no, Nick. I would not run a 0.020" over block at 24psi let alone 30 psi. The OEM liners are not particularly thick and that level of power will oval the bores during operation leading to blowby and possibly worse. For high power builds I want a standard bore or a 0.002" or so oversize bore. A 0.020" overbore (or larger) is simply asking for problems you don't need or want. That block is used up. It should be resleeved or thrown out but not used in a 30 psi engine build.

    Ed
    Last edited by eschaider; 09-28-2016 at 06:45 PM. Reason: Spelling & Grammar

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    Can you explain the thickness of the liners? Like what the thickness is standard bore? And what a minimum thickness should be?

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    Sleeves are made in 1/16 or 3/32 typically. Race sleeves are made 1/8 or thicker depending on available space. The issue is less how thick the liners are and more that thin OEM liners distort or fail at high cylinder pressures. If you feel comfortable boring a block that is 0.020" over then you should go that route. One of the things we try to do on the site is share knowledge and experiences so others do not have to pay the same price for the knowledge. If your preference is to bore those sleeves larger there is absolutely no one more qualified to make that decision than you are because you are writing the checks.

    The next comments are just my feelings about how I would proceed. I simply don't want to break parts. I believe if you build your engine correctly you will wear it out — unless you screw up the tune or are competing at the very top of a #/inch of displacement class. Rather than buy a new block and prep it which would be relatively inexpensive, I would sleeve your current block using a set of LA Sleeve's flanged ductile iron Modmotor sleeves that have a 0.125" wall. The flange at the top of the sleeve is large enough to accommodate a receiver groove for a stainless o-ring that will be put into the deck surface of the head.

    When you run at 30psi of boost (or higher) you are actually past the reliable sealing threshold of MLS gaskets. When you experience a gasket failure in an engine like that, it will torch the head and the block. The damage will be fairly impressive both in its extent and cost to repair. A four stud/bolt head bolt pattern around a cylinder provides at best a marginal seal in that kind of supercharged environment. A five or six bolt bolt pattern is decidedly more desirable. We don't have one.

    The stainless wire o-ring in the head and receiver groove in the block in conjunction with a dead soft copper gasket is exactly what the doctor ordered for this kind of operation. You do not have to take that path. There are many alternatives out there. There is just none that provide better head gasket sealing.

    This is the way the stainless o-rings appear in the heads,

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    This is how the receiver grooves appear in the block's sleeve flanges,

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    And this is how a pair of LA Sleeve flanged sleeves for a Modmotor look on 100mm bore centers with receiver grooves,

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    This is how I would repair the block you already have. the repair process is better than the replacement process because the replacement OEM block will have the same thin OEM liners w/o flanges and you will begin a new journey of impressive destruction — IMO


    Ed
    Last edited by eschaider; 09-29-2016 at 12:14 PM. Reason: Spelling & Grammar

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    Senior Member Array RussZTT's Avatar
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    Ed, the stock bore Teksid doesn't have enough space between the cylinders for a receiving grove does it? I have read (correct me if I am wrong) that we can get small o-rings in the heads and run copper gaskets? Few have told me that if I went with a copper gasket with 0-rings will leak and not advised for a street/strip car, true?

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    Quote Originally Posted by RussZTT View Post
    Ed, the stock bore Teksid doesn't have enough space between the cylinders for a receiving grove does it? I have read (correct me if I am wrong) that we can get small o-rings in the heads and run copper gaskets? Few have told me that if I went with a copper gasket with 0-rings will leak and not advised for a street/strip car, true?

    Russ the drawing of the LA Sleeve sleeves in post 13 uses the LA Sleeves that are flanged and have a flange diameter of 3.935". As you can see from the drawing there is more than adequate room for the receiver groove in the flange. If you do not want to go the route of flanged sleeves and receiver grooves then the only other alternative is the SCE ICS Titan gaskets. Any other way of producing an o-ring seal is not recommended.


    Quote Originally Posted by RussZTT View Post
    Few have told me that if I went with a copper gasket with 0-rings will leak and not advised for a street/strip car, true?
    I think what you meant to ask was will copper gaskets with stainless o-rings leak coolant and oil. The answer is more often than not, yes. SCE gaskets use some material applied to the gasket to improve the seal around these passages that works to mitigate the leakage but if you remove the heads and reuse the gaskets (as they are capable of being reused) you are likely to experience increased oil and coolant leakage.


    Ed

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