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Turbo cams

21K views 132 replies 11 participants last post by  cobranick123 
#1 ·
Who are some of the best guys to talk to about turbo cams? And what are the best chains and spockets on the market? Looking to order cams and and the necessary chains and spockets to degree them

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#3 ·
I would suggest contacting John Mihovetz at Accufab racing in Ontario California as John has more experience with racing modular engines than anyone else.
 
#4 ·
Thank you both for your replies, but now its more than just cams. Pulling the motor. Should have it out by tonight. Then the phone calls start tomorrow. Going to try L&m first because he will rebuild what I already have. Accufabs web says they will not use my parts. My current motor already has a stroker crank and oliver billet rods that I would like to reuse. And I have a spare virgin teksid also. So hopefully micheal can help?!?!

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#5 ·
You will find Michael is a straight shooter and a straight talker, Nick (am I correct?). Tell him what you have, what you want to do and listen to what he suggests. When he is done, tell him what makes the most sense to you. Michael is both experienced and impressive — in the extreme. You will be in good hands.

Ed
 
#8 ·
Michael has multiple decades of experience across the most popular performance engine platforms. Over the last two decades or so he has focussed on Modmotors and now the new Coyote platform. There have been multiple cylinder head choices from Ford for the engine starting with what we call the "B" heads and moving forward to the GT500 heads of today. Michael is familiar with all of them. If you put a GT500 style head on the engine you will require a custom intake manifold - something to think about because they are ~$3,500 propositions unless you can find used pieces and then you are possibly in the $2,500 price space.

Yes and no on the cam specs. The higher in the engine speed you want to run the engine the greater the heads ultimate port flow numbers have to be or the head throttles the engine. When you get the port flow straightened out for the top of the power curve you can frequently find yourself with too much port flow and low speed performance will be sacrificed. Similarly when you optimize the head flow for low speed drivability high speed performance is muted. The cams can crutch one end or the other - somewhat. The real answer is don't race a street engine and don't daily drive a race engine.

Before the rebuild starts, I do have a question. I had this motor originally built in 2006. Its a 5.0 stroker, vt engines crank, oliver billet 5.850 rods, and cp pistons (I believe 23cc) 8.7 comp. I would like to reuse most of the parts I have, but would lime to know if there is a possibility of getting 8500rpm out of that stroke? And what would need to be addressed to get there? If I would have known what I know know now I would have stayed stock stroke. But as life goes on things change. And budgets are not what they once were when I was younger. So reusing what I have is pretty important to be able to continue to play in this hobby. Any outlook on this would be appreciated

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All things being equal I prefer a stock stroke over a stroker for our engines. The block package was fairly well optimized by Ford for the bore / stroke combination the engine has. There is some wiggle room but when you go there you are opening up the reliability gremlins door. That does not mean the engine is going to go up in a mushroom shaped cloud when you run it but it does mean the engine will wear out internals more quickly and require a different maintenance regimen compared to a stock stroke engine.

Strokers will produce more power because of the increased displacement but we are getting back to the street vs race engine issue again. If you have the stroker rotating assembly you could always sell it and go stock stroke or you could use it. The motor will work either way. In blown engines the piston skirt needs to be robust to prevent collapsing under power. When you add the increased side thrust that a stroker brings to the party the skirts take an even greater beating. It essentially boils down to a matter of preferences. As the saying goes if you don't mind it don't matter. BTW a good skirt thickness for a blower motor with short skirts like our is right around 0.190" to 0.200". If you run a supercharged engine (let alone a stroker) it would be better to have the heavy skirts than not.

What in the world is magic about 8500 rpm? Is there some sort of award if your engine turns 8500 rpm? When you use a stoker version of the engine and spin it 8500 rpm there is lots of stuff trying to escape from the engine. Go back to a stock stoke and the same stuff is trying to escape. The big difference is how hard it is trying to escape. Stock stroke engines are simply more reliable and durable. There is a reason JM uses stock stroke cranks in his race car. With the budget he has for the race operation the cost of a stroker crank would be the equivalent of a mosquito bite on the butt of an elephant. Pregnant question becomes why doesn't he use one? The answers are reliability and it is not necessary.

BTW if you have your heart set on 8500 rpm why stop there why not 9000 or 10,000 rpm? I sort of like 10,000 rpm, it has a nice round feel to the number. What should be important to you is that you have a good performing street engine that provides that electric motor type of throttle response to the commands of the driver's right foot. I guarantee you, that as a driver or passenger in the car, you can not tell the difference between a 7500 rpm ceiling and an 8500 rpm ceiling on the street. You will be able to tell the difference in the two when it comes to the life of the engine and also the maintenance regimen it will require however.

Pick your poison, tell Michael which cocktail you want and let the barkeep mix up your drink. Be careful what you order or you might just get surprised.

Ed
 
#7 ·
Before the rebuild starts, I do have a question. I had this motor originally built in 2006. Its a 5.0 stroker, vt engines crank, oliver billet 5.850 rods, and cp pistons (I believe 23cc) 8.7 comp. I would like to reuse most of the parts I have, but would lime to know if there is a possibility of getting 8500rpm out of that stroke? And what would need to be addressed to get there? If I would have known what I know know now I would have stayed stock stroke. But as life goes on things change. And budgets are not what they once were when I was younger. So reusing what I have is pretty important to be able to continue to play in this hobby. Any outlook on this would be appreciated

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#10 · (Edited)
IMO the answer is absolutely no, Nick. I would not run a 0.020" over block at 24psi let alone 30 psi. The OEM liners are not particularly thick and that level of power will oval the bores during operation leading to blowby and possibly worse. For high power builds I want a standard bore or a 0.002" or so oversize bore. A 0.020" overbore (or larger) is simply asking for problems you don't need or want. That block is used up. It should be resleeved or thrown out but not used in a 30 psi engine build.

Ed
 
#16 ·
Can you explain the thickness of the liners? Like what the thickness is standard bore? And what a minimum thickness should be?
to quote a recent technical article on 4.6 liter Ford engines:

the aluminum block has an advantage, specifically, is in the case of the cylinder liner," Mihovetz explained. "A typical sleeve is 90-thousandths thick in its stock form, and then you have anywhere from a 1/4- to 3/8-inch added wall thickness of aluminum to back it up. This added material helps keep the cylinders round."

In regards to re conditioning cylinder walls on a 4.6 Teksid block, Once I begin my 2001 Cobra Teksid build, I will give my machine shop strict orders to only hone the cylinders enough to remove taper and clean up the bore. In my discussions with Accufab racing concerning the use of their custom JE pistons, I was informed that 3 thousands is typically enough to clean up a stock untouched 4.6 Teksid bore.
 
#13 · (Edited)
Sleeves are made in 1/16 or 3/32 typically. Race sleeves are made 1/8 or thicker depending on available space. The issue is less how thick the liners are and more that thin OEM liners distort or fail at high cylinder pressures. If you feel comfortable boring a block that is 0.020" over then you should go that route. One of the things we try to do on the site is share knowledge and experiences so others do not have to pay the same price for the knowledge. If your preference is to bore those sleeves larger there is absolutely no one more qualified to make that decision than you are because you are writing the checks.

The next comments are just my feelings about how I would proceed. I simply don't want to break parts. I believe if you build your engine correctly you will wear it out - unless you screw up the tune or are competing at the very top of a #/inch of displacement class. Rather than buy a new block and prep it which would be relatively inexpensive, I would sleeve your current block using a set of LA Sleeve's flanged ductile iron Modmotor sleeves that have a 0.125" wall. The flange at the top of the sleeve is large enough to accommodate a receiver groove for a stainless o-ring that will be put into the deck surface of the head.

When you run at 30psi of boost (or higher) you are actually past the reliable sealing threshold of MLS gaskets. When you experience a gasket failure in an engine like that, it will torch the head and the block. The damage will be fairly impressive both in its extent and cost to repair. A four stud/bolt head bolt pattern around a cylinder provides at best a marginal seal in that kind of supercharged environment. A five or six bolt bolt pattern is decidedly more desirable. We don't have one.

The stainless wire o-ring in the head and receiver groove in the block in conjunction with a dead soft copper gasket is exactly what the doctor ordered for this kind of operation. You do not have to take that path. There are many alternatives out there. There is just none that provide better head gasket sealing.

This is the way the stainless o-rings appear in the heads,

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This is how the receiver grooves appear in the block's sleeve flanges,

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And this is how a pair of LA Sleeve flanged sleeves for a Modmotor look on 100mm bore centers with receiver grooves,

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This is how I would repair the block you already have. the repair process is better than the replacement process because the replacement OEM block will have the same thin OEM liners w/o flanges and you will begin a new journey of impressive destruction - IMO

Ed
 
#14 ·
Ed, the stock bore Teksid doesn't have enough space between the cylinders for a receiving grove does it? I have read (correct me if I am wrong) that we can get small o-rings in the heads and run copper gaskets? Few have told me that if I went with a copper gasket with 0-rings will leak and not advised for a street/strip car, true?
 
#15 ·
Russ the drawing of the LA Sleeve sleeves in post 13 uses the LA Sleeves that are flanged and have a flange diameter of 3.935". As you can see from the drawing there is more than adequate room for the receiver groove in the flange. If you do not want to go the route of flanged sleeves and receiver grooves then the only other alternative is the SCE ICS Titan gaskets. Any other way of producing an o-ring seal is not recommended.

Few have told me that if I went with a copper gasket with 0-rings will leak and not advised for a street/strip car, true?
I think what you meant to ask was will copper gaskets with stainless o-rings leak coolant and oil. The answer is more often than not, yes. SCE gaskets use some material applied to the gasket to improve the seal around these passages that works to mitigate the leakage but if you remove the heads and reuse the gaskets (as they are capable of being reused) you are likely to experience increased oil and coolant leakage.

Ed
 
#18 ·
Question, can I eliminate the coolant pipe under the intake? I was wondering if I can get the -10 fitting to put in behing the water pump and just cap it off. And then with the head cooling mod just run a hose from one head to the other. I dont have a heater core in the car

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#19 ·
Yes you can Nick. Just push out the OEM nipple and buy a Dorman freeze plug and push it in to seal the hole. That is the intake side of the pump and primarily sees a pressure drop because it is drawing coolant as opposed to pushing coolant. Take the nipple up to your local Dorman supplier and he can match up a freeze plug for you that will fit.


Ed


Don't forget to run the HCM
 
#23 · (Edited)
Ed, do you happen to have a part number for the LA sleeves?
Thanks

Ken
Thank you!
Apologies guys I am overseas.

Thanks y2k2gt. Those are in fact the LA Sleeve catalog pages for Modmotors. The one you want Ken, is LA Sleeve part number FL3244. This sleeve can be finished in either a 3.500 bore or a 3.550 bore and then finish honed to 3.552" after installation.

Ed

<Update> p.s. The LA Sleeves sleeve LA3280 is the flangeless Modmotor replacement sleeve, the LA Sleeves FL3244 is a flanged sleeve suitable for copper head gaskets with stainless o-rings in the heads.

Once a block is machined for the 3280 sleeve you can no longer use the 3244 sleeve. It will no longer fit. If you intend to use dead soft copper head gaskets and stainless o-rings in the heads the only sleeve that will support this is the FL3244 sleeve. <Update>
 
#24 ·
What is the best oil pump on the market for a turbo 4v? Ive heard use a 3v pump or a melling pump. I was currently running my stock 98 cobra pump with billet gears. Just wondering if I should keep the pump I have? Or is there a better option out there while its apart? Thanks

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#26 ·
On to choosing a trigger wheel. The car has a big stuff 3. I have always ran a standard (0 degree) billet trigger wheel with no issues. But I also always had stock timing gears. I ordered mmr's fully adjustable timing set with upgraded shd secondary chains. And there secondary and primary tensioners. I see that they offer a billet trigger wheel in standard and +2 degree thats suppose to help "cure" big stuff 3 issues. Does anyone have any experience with these trigger wheels. Should I order standard and see if there is issues before moving to the +2 degree wheel? Or just order the +2 degree wheel to start with? Im lost on this one, any help is appreciated

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#28 ·
The key was messed up on the crank from the cog drive. Which wrecked the original billet trigger wheel I had. So I have to order a new one. And with the new adustable timing gears I wasnt sure if I needed the +2 degree wheel. My cams were never degreed before and had all factory gears. This is a whole new combo. New pistons, heads, custom turbo cams, and different timing gears. Was just wondering if I needed the +2 wheel. Or is it only for people that have a problem with the eugor not reading 28?

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#31 ·
Both the TFS and MMR indexed dual lower sprockets work better with a 3/16" square tool steel crank snout key. The OEM woodruff key and the sprockets align poorly. The OEM woodruff key has long unsupported tails at each end, see the pic below;

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Just the luck of the draw, but the individual sprockets end up being "indexed" sufficiently by the unsupported "wings" on the woodruff key that they bend those wings, move on the crank snout, damage the crank and damper and sometimes bounce valves off pistons.

There are two fixes. The first is the use of the single piece snout sprocket made from billet steel and the use of a tool steel 3/16" square key that runs the length of the crank snout. The second uses the indexable lower sprockets and the 3/16" tool steel square key yet again.

The woodruff key was another one of those gifts from Ford like the 4 thread sparkplug holes and several other niceties they gave us at no extra cost other than operational failures.

BTW if you use the billet steel non adjustable snout gear you can still put your cams wherever you wish with the Cloyes adjustable gears - which I highly recommend.

Ed
 
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