Potential New Block Source

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  1. #1

    Default Potential New Block Source

    Quite by accident I stumbled on what appears will become a new block source for Modmotors and Coyote's. The pic below is a side view of the Coyote / Modmotor block. The primary differences I am aware of right now are the front timing cover dress (different for the two blocks), the oil drain backs, again different for each block. The crank trigger positioning will allow the use of a front Modmotor style crank position sensor or the Coyote rear style crank position sensor.

    A couple of other differences, stock Coyote's and Modmotors use a cast in sleeve that is essentially 0.090" thick on the Modmotor and 0.060 or so on the Coyote. This block uses a replaceable flanged sleeve that is a little over 0.130" thick at a standard 3.552 bore. The Coyote uses a larger sleeve OD to increase wall thickness.

    The main webs have been increased to 24mm - essentially 1" thick and the main studs will either be 11mm or 12mm and possibly ARP 2000 steel in the12mm version. The block uses full width billet steel main caps with dual 7/16 side bolts on each side. The head studs are 12mm ARP 2000 steel.

    Stock oil pumps and stock oil pans bolt up although the pan rails are much more robust than the OEM style rail The flange on the sleeve is adequately large to accommodate an o-ring receiver groove if you wanted to run high boost and dead soft copper head gaskets with stainless o-rings in the heads. The side entry water and oil ports have been modified. The oil out and oil in ports use -12AN nipples and require the use of a remote oil filter. The original Modmotor side entry inlet for the water pump has been replaced with a front entry water pump like a GT500.

    Here is an early pic of the block from the driverside front. The oil exit and entry ports have not yet been played out as AN ports;

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    And here is another preliminary view from the passenger side front;

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    It is my understanding the block deck surface will get modified water passages with additional liner support at 12 and 6 o'clock. The block is a full water jacket block meaning it is operable as a daily driver rather than just at the track. The Modmotor version will retain the Coyote block ribbing and reinforcements rather than the less rigid Modmotor block case.

    As more information becomes available I will post it up and share it.

    Say some words...



    Ed
    Last edited by eschaider; 10-26-2016 at 01:03 PM. Reason: Spelling & Grammar

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  3. #2
    Senior Member Array rtusnake's Avatar
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    Maybe I missed it, aluminum blocks? Cast?. That bottom webbing and main studs sound beefy. How did you stumble across this?

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    Senior Member Array oldmodman's Avatar
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    With liners with that much wall I can't see high boost levels ever being a problem. Plus a larger clamping area right around the cylinders (assuming a similar increase in flange size) should nearly eliminate head to block gasket blowout.
    Only drawback I can see is if it is priced at 6K.

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  6. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by rtusnake View Post
    Maybe I missed it, aluminum blocks? Cast?. That bottom webbing and main studs sound beefy. How did you stumble across this?
    You didn't, Michael.

    I forgot to comment. The blocks are in fact cast aluminum, 356 T6 or T651 (can't remember which). I couldn't agree more with you about the bottom end. It is impressive by any standard. I just got off the phone with the man who is driving the whole endeavor and some things in the basic model are starting to sort down and simplify. The first one today was a decision to settle in on a 1/2" main stud as standard. I am certain there will be other consolidations and enhancements as it moves forward.



    Quote Originally Posted by oldmodman View Post
    With liners with that much wall I can't see high boost levels ever being a problem. Plus a larger clamping area right around the cylinders (assuming a similar increase in flange size) should nearly eliminate head to block gasket blowout.
    Only drawback I can see is if it is priced at 6K.
    I know Drew. I campaigned for robust liners just because these engines are supercharged. We are both on the same band wagon with respect to minimizing gasket failures. This should be a nice step in that direction.

    The thing most people do not think about is the fact that the original OEM liners are cast in place in the block, when the block is poured. While core shift today is nothing like in the old days, it still exists. Imagine a liner like a Coyote uses, or to a lesser extent a Modmotor, that shifts only 0.015" or so. If a standard bore cylinder wall was 0.085", then a 0.015" core shift would make the liner 0.100" thick on one side and 0.070" thick on the other. This would be troublesome as you attempt to push up the boost and power — not to mention refinishing an injured cylinder after burning piston.

    The benefit of the replaceable liners is not only the uniformity in wall thickness but also the serviceability. A complete replacement is more easily accomplished with replaceable sleeves than the cast in place liners. I am building a fairly significant amount of cautious optimism for this effort.

    While the price point has not been set at this time yet I am fairly confident it can fall pretty close to the $5K mark, fully machined with liners main studs and side bolts. I just love the idea of a set of mains that get torqued to 125 ft/lbs and side bolts that go to 80 or 85 ft/lbs all on essentially 1 inch wide main webbing.


    Ed

  7. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by rtusnake View Post
    ... How did you stumble across this?
    Apologies, Michael. I didn't mean to overlook the question.

    The real answer is it was the dumbest of dumb luck. Someone who knows this man or someone close to him (I don't recall which anymore) put the two of us together to chat about the project and over time, one thing lead to another. It was literally that straight forward.


    Ed

  8. #6

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    Good info ED.. glad to see modular Engines are pushing forward!
    Daniel

  9. #7
    Senior Member Array smashedheadcat's Avatar
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    I've been killing myself trying to decide which block to use, and I have been patiently waiting for this thread since I first saw you mention it. $5K is big chunk of change, but if it ends up being considerably better than what else is out there, it may be worth it.

  10. #8

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    I have no doubt it will be a big step up in strength and reliability, Josh. One of the really nice attributes for me is the idea of replaceable cylinder sleeves. While nothing is a forever deal just the idea of always having a std bore or a 0.005 overbore with huge liner wall thickness for high boost is a real nice touch.

    That said the bottom end really knocks my socks off.


    Ed

  11. #9
    Senior Member Array oldmodman's Avatar
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    A 1500 hp street engine that will last?

    That would be worth the money. But then add another 5K for the custom billet crank. Plus all the other odds and ends I would be writing the checks for (while grinning). So, using all the ancillary parts from a stock 2003 Cobra engine. Add another 15K.

    And end up with a reliable engine with power similar to what John is getting today. There goes my idea of keeping my IRS.

  12. #10
    Senior Member Array badcobra's Avatar
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    Looks pretty cool, thanks for sharing Ed.

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    Senior Member Array mr95gst's Avatar
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    I would assume these are going to coming out of Europe somewhere. Do they he any relationship to the Koenigsegg production blocks? Any idea on a price point?

    Quote Originally Posted by eschaider View Post
    Apologies, Michael. I didn't mean to overlook the question.

    The real answer is it was the dumbest of dumb luck. Someone who knows this man or someone close to him (I don't recall which anymore) put the two of us together to chat about the project and over time, one thing lead to another. It was literally that straight forward.


    Ed

  14. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr95gst View Post
    I would assume these are going to coming out of Europe somewhere. Do they he any relationship to the Koenigsegg production blocks? Any idea on a price point?
    They are unrelated to the Koenigsegg blocks, Nick. the Koenigsegg block is actually the old Sean Hyland block. When he couldn't get adequate interest in the aftermarket for the block he sold the whole shebang to Koenigsegg who wanted it for his One:1 supercar.

    I am not at liberty yet to reveal the source although I can say they have built aftermarket versions of the old 392 Hemi and the Ford 427 FE in cast iron and aluminum along with aluminum medium riser heads for the FE engine. If I am not mistaken they are the source of the 427 blocks Roush uses in their 511 inch FE engine offerings

    The pricing will get a little clearer after the first Coyote proof of concept blocks get finished in December. One of the many attributes I find attractive is the idea of replaceable sleeves. Today if we hurt a hole we end up boring the entire block oversize. This block will allow the replacement of a single sleeve — so it comes down to one piston one sleeve and you are back in business.

    The other thing I had not considered until one of the guys at the foundry brought it up was the benefit of the replaceable sleeves over the cast in sleeves. Core shift like we have known in years gone by is all but eliminated in the casting process today. Most good foundry's can reasonably hold a precision of 0.010" to 0.015" in terms of managing core shift.

    The pregnant question, that never occurred to me before is, what does that do to your cylinder bore if you have a cast-in stock liner that only has a 0.090" wall thickness? You guessed it, one side could be as thick as 0.105 while the opposite side could be as thin as 0.075". Pretty interesting! With the use of pressed in flanged liners you get perfectly uniform cylinder wall thickness all the way around.

    As I get more information I will be posting it up in the thread for everyone.



    Ed

  15. #13
    Senior Member Array SnakeBit's Avatar
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    This block with direct injection, knock sensors, Koenigsegg hydraulic cam heads and a standalone management system would be very badass indeed. Then the challenge might be to keep the front end on the ground. Something to aspire to.

  16. #14
    Supporting Vendor Array Mod Mustang Racing's Avatar
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    These blocks are being designed by Bear Block Motors in CA, they are intended to be cast in China, much of the design (such as 4 side bolts and AN oil inlets/outlets) are ideas that were taken when visiting our facility a few months back from our MMR Gen X billet Coyote block shown below, the problem we have seen however is most castings from China are very poor, this may or may not be the case with this engine and it will certainly be interesting to see the final result.


  17. #15

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    Actually the MMR guys are correct about the blocks coming from Bear Block Motors (BBM) in CA. I was not at liberty to say that but, now that the cat is out of the bag, it wasn't me. I can say with certainty that the blocks are not being cast in China not withstanding MMR's representations to the contrary. Moreover, I can say that with a fairly high level of authority because I visited the foundry that is making the blocks with the President of Bear Block Motors.

    The double side bolt implementation was in actual fact one of my own contributions to the project at BBM that substantially predates MMR's Coyote project. The double side bolt approach was derived from the original double side bolt arrangement that Keith Black used on his Stage VI and later Chrysler Hemi blocks for Top Fuel and blown alcohol engines back in the day. The KB double side bolt block design is the same block and block design which I used in my own race cars for many decades and have today. Significantly it predates the MMR effort by several decades. The dual side bolt innovation is a Keith Black enhancement that has been copied by many manufacturers, including MMR, in the decades since Keith Black originally produced it.

    The MMR block will be an interesting solid billet racing version of the Coyote engine much like the race only implementations of the Chrysler Hemi's today. The BBM blocks on the other hand will be full water jacketed Coyote and ModMotor versions of each block with substantial strength and serviceability enhancements over the existing OEM alternatives, including replaceable flanged sleeves and the capability of operation in a daily driver type of vehicle environment with a full conventional cooling system.

    The primary benefit of the Bear Block Motors replaceable sleeve approach is the ability to repair one sleeve and one piston ass'y and be back in business without the requirement to bore all eight cylinders and replace all eight pistons. Additionally the replaceable sleeves will come with substantially increased wall thickness to support very high boost applications without the kind of distortion associated with OEM thickness sleeves and blocks.

    MMR was correct about BBM being the source of the blocks but factually incorrect about everything else.



    Ed
    Last edited by eschaider; 11-02-2016 at 07:19 PM. Reason: Spelling & Grammar

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