Trunk tank vs Killer Chiller on high boost car

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  1. #1
    Senior Member Array GodStang's Avatar
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    Default Trunk tank vs Killer Chiller on high boost car

    My final piece to finish my car is how to cool the big blower. I keep going back and forth between a trunk tank and a killer chiller. It is a street car but may go on 1/2 mile track days. Anyone had both? Which did you like better?

    I currently have a larger front intercooler and ran a gallon ice box that did not cut it on the smaller 2.8L.
    Last edited by GodStang; 12-05-2016 at 12:20 PM. Reason: Update info.

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    Senior Member Array badcobra's Avatar
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    Are you on Facebook? Contact a fella named Justin Wheeler. He modifies the stock intercooler in/out significantly and the stock intercooler for a dramatic improvement in flow and cooling performance. He also makes trunk mount tanks. This is a much better option than a killer chiller IMO.

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    Senior Member Array GodStang's Avatar
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    Ya I have heard of him. His setup is not an option. Thank you though for the input.

    Quote Originally Posted by badcobra View Post
    Are you on Facebook? Contact a fella named Justin Wheeler. He modifies the stock intercooler in/out significantly and the stock intercooler for a dramatic improvement in flow and cooling performance. He also makes trunk mount tanks. This is a much better option than a killer chiller IMO.

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    Senior Member Array ricksterman's Avatar
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    Man it's been a long time since I posted.

    I was an early adopter of the Killer Chiller (KC), and also have the drag kit, allowing the A/C to be (essentially) diverted solely to the KC heat exchanger. I also run a 2.3 Whipple at 23#. The amount of heat the blowers on our cars generate means that there is simply not enough active cooling from the A/C to keep the IC fluid temps low at boost. For the drag strip this isn't an issue, idle the car until the IC temps are minimum (final temps depends on the setup, heat soak, etc.), make a pass, repeat. For the track you may well extend the time the temps are cooler than using a passive system, but there are too many variables at play to say for how long and what the equilibrium temperature would be. The KC described simply is a built-in "ice" generator. But it can only make so much. In the summer (95-100 F), I bypass my dual-pass air/water HE, and let the KC do all the cooling, the reduced volume of fluid means it heats up faster, but also cools faster, I don't beat on it for a long time (on the street this gets you in trouble fast anyway). In the winter I add the HE back in since ambient conditions help.

    Many years ago I spent a little time in Aiken (SRNL), but never made it out to the dragstrip.
    Last edited by ricksterman; 12-05-2016 at 11:20 AM.

  7. #5
    Senior Member Array cobraracer46's Avatar
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    You are already half way there with the blower cooling as the KB Mammoth unit is liquid cooled and in regards to controlling inlet air temps, Ford has done all the hard work for you when it comes to creating an extreme heavy duty supercharging cooling system with the 2013 GT500 intercooler parts that has gone through tons of durability testing so why fool around with anything else?


    In my garage I have a 2013 GT500 heat exchanger, the OEM oversize heat exchanger coolant pump that I plan on putting on soon. My car already has a Vortech intercooler tank in the trunk that I plan to swap out for a larger Canton unit.


    Here is the 2013 GT500 heat exchanger that I am mocking up on my car.


    A pic of the massive 2013 Shelby OEM pump that flows significantly more coolant than the OEM terminator BOSCH unit and the elephant size heat exchanger.







    For sure, installing a 2013 GT500 heart exchanger on a 199-2004 mustang is not a bolt on affair as there will be a lot of fabrication involved to install it, but I think that its the right way to go as Ford designed the 2013 Gt500 supercharger cooling system to prevent the big 5.8 motor in the 2013 Shelby from heat soaking and going into limp mode when driven hard on a road coarse so the 2013 GT500 parts will have no problem at all keeping the inlet temps low on my street driven Vortech boosted car.
    Last edited by cobraracer46; 12-05-2016 at 12:06 PM.

  8. #6
    Senior Member Array ricksterman's Avatar
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    The liquid cooling on the KB may not be what you think it is. It uses the engine coolant; 180-200 F (generally). All passive systems are limited by ambient conditions, the HE and intercooler (also an HE) can only improve the efficiency of the heat transfer, once it's up to temp you're not going to be cooling below what's available from the outside air. If I go from no boost to full boost in my car, the IC fluid has to be 30+ F cooler than the intake for me to see no significant change in temperature between IAT1 and IAT2 (warmed up). Obviously that doesn't last long since the IC fluid starts heating up. How much the blower heats up the air depends on the blower, boost, and engine.

    Godstang's question, which is not easy to answer, is whether an active system like the KC will be capable of maintaining an equilibrium temperature (under boost) that is lower than ambient. My (lengthy) response was that it depends on how long you want to keep it at high boost. You can increase the time with a larger volume of IC fluid, but it also takes longer to cool back down. For a drag car a large trunk mounted tank w/ ice is generally the simplest solution, especially since you've (presumably) removed all the non-essential equipment. I did it for a few years and it worked great, but I got tired of lugging bags of ice and filling the tank after each pass, and I do run my car on the street. With the KC on the IC fluid is generally between 45 - 70 F cruising around (depending on ambient conditions).

    The 03-04 cobra's and GT500's intercooler systems were designed for the stock blowers and boost, up it and all bets are off.
    Last edited by ricksterman; 12-06-2016 at 12:03 AM.

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    Senior Member Array GodStang's Avatar
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    I appreciate the comments. I work out at SRS so I know many SRNL people.

    I have a upgraded heat exchanger but was running a one gallon tank that sat driverside front. My new blower's intake is there now so the tank is gone. I have no tank. So I am trying to decide do I buy a 5-8 gallon tank and call it a day. I won't track much. Maybe once a year if that. Or do I buy a killer chiller and one of the small stock replacement tanks or do I mix the two and get a 3 gallon trunk tank and run the killer chiller.



    Quote Originally Posted by ricksterman View Post
    The liquid cooling on the KB may not be what you think it is. It uses the engine coolant; 180-200 F (generally). All passive systems are limited by ambient conditions, the HE and intercooler (also an HE) can only improve the efficiency of the heat transfer, once it's up to temp you're not going to be cooling below what's available from the outside air. If I go from no boost to full boost in my car, the IC fluid has to be 30+ F cooler than the intake for me to see no significant change in temperature between IAT1 and IAT2 (warmed up). Obviously that doesn't last long since the IC fluid starts heating up. How much the blower heats up the air depends on the blower, boost, and engine.

    Godstang's question, which is not easy to answer, is whether an active system like the KC will be capable of maintaining an equilibrium temperature (under boost) that is lower than ambient. My (lengthy) response was that it depends on how long you want to keep it at high boost. You can increase the time with a larger volume of IC fluid, but it also takes longer to cool back down. For a drag car a large trunk mounted tank w/ ice is generally the simplest solution, especially since you've (presumably) removed all the non-essential equipment. I did it for a few years and it worked great, but I got tired of lugging bags of ice and filling the tank after each pass, and I do run my car on the street. With the KC on the IC fluid is generally between 45 - 70 F cruising around (depending on ambient conditions).

    The 03-04 cobra's and GT500's intercooler systems were designed for the stock blowers and boost, up it and all bets are off.

  10. #8
    Senior Member Array Wicked46's Avatar
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    I have a rear mount tank with a Rule 2000 pump that works well! I fill it with ice before a pass and it does what I need it to!

  11. #9
    Senior Member Array cobraracer46's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ricksterman View Post
    The liquid cooling on the KB may not be what you think it is. It uses the engine coolant; 180-200 F (generally). All passive systems are limited by ambient conditions, the HE and intercooler (also an HE) can only improve the efficiency of the heat transfer, once it's up to temp you're not going to be cooling below what's available from the outside air. If I go from no boost to full boost in my car, the IC fluid has to be 30+ F cooler than the intake for me to see no significant change in temperature between IAT1 and IAT2 (warmed up). Obviously that doesn't last long since the IC fluid starts heating up. How much the blower heats up the air depends on the blower, boost, and engine.


    The 03-04 cobra's and GT500's intercooler systems were designed for the stock blowers and boost, up it and all bets are off.

    The OEM Ford super charger cooling system is significantly more heavy duty than previous versions and able to take a ton of abusive road coarse driving:

    : "Charge cooling the supercharger's output has been the bane of blower Mustangs from day one, and with the GT500 now running 15 pounds of boost, even more intercooling was needed. This immense heat exchanger is the result. It measures 11-inches tall with three rows compared to last year's 7-inch-tall, two-row design. The coolant pump was also enlarged from 4 to 8 gallons per minute, and the pump moved onto the engine itself because the rear axle cooler's radiator grabbed its original location below the right headlight.


    Cooling
    The 662hp GT500 has hellish heat rejection to battle. This is especially true at high speeds, when the engine is working hard, and why SVT took a two-tier approach to cooling the new Shelby. That is, GT500s in standard duty cool just fine in base form, while the cars that are run at "... high speeds for a long time" are the reason for Track Cooling.

    Erin Gibb, the SVT engineer tasked with working out the cooling details, started with the supercharger's charge air cooler (intercooler). This took some doing. Apparently three systems were tried before everyone was happy, but the result is a massively larger heat exchanger and a coolant pump with twice the flow capacity.

    The larger exchanger and pump yield a huge 45-percent increase in heat rejection, which fully manifests itself at the road course. Whereas early GT500s would heat-soak after a few laps, then pull ignition timing for detonation protection--positively murdering horsepower in the process--the '13 GT500 laps continuously with only a minor reduction in power. We don't think you'll notice it. The car is consistent at the dragstrip, too."

    Again, the 2013 Gt500 cooling system has been torture tested to to keep things cool after multiple road coarse laps so that system will out perform the small terminator parts.

  12. #10
    Senior Member Array ricksterman's Avatar
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    Godstang, valid points. I stayed with a larger LFP tank in the stock location, adding some more volume with the KC HE and the added lines. It can cool about 3-4 F per minute when everything is at temp and not under boost. With a much larger tank in the trunk that will be slower and you're also looking at insulating the additional lines. I'd go with a larger tank in the trunk, and consider the KC later if you want to try it.

  13. #11
    Senior Member Array posi's Avatar
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    I was going to run both. Remember you don't have to be "greedy" about the KC if it has trouble cooling 4-5 gallons of water. All you're after is to keep any timing from being pulled. People were telling me the KC runs at 50*'s or so. To me with my 5 gallon cell if they stayed at 75*'s it was still a success.

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    Senior Member Array painlessauto's Avatar
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    I plumbed a secondary condenser where my heat exchanger was. Time will tell how well it works.

    3.4 whipple Lightning application though, not Cobra.

    Just food for thought...
    Last edited by painlessauto; 12-07-2016 at 08:20 AM.

  15. #13
    Senior Member Array G03SVT's Avatar
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    I really like my KC and for a mostly street driven car it is a no brainer. It also didn't work bad at the track either, I do sometimes add ice to my underhood tank though. I was running a 2.9 Crusher at 24-25psi. My goal was to drive mine on the street on a hot humid day and not pull any timing and the KC handles that with ease. IAT2's never go over 100*.

  16. #14
    Senior Member Array GodStang's Avatar
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    Thanks everyone. I am really thinking hard about doing a 5 gallon Rule 2000 trunk tank then adding a Killer Chiller.

    So my question is how to make the killer chiller more efficient? I plan to run industrial R12a. If I run a bigger plate heat exchanger instead of the one the killer chiller comes with and put insulation on all my lines can I make it efficient enough to cool the 5 gallons at a respectable rate. Don't need to set records on cooling just don't want to pull timing on healthy boost.

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    The rule of thumb, Josh, is that additional plate count increases the BTUs per unit time you can sink away. Additional length increases how cold you can make the chilled fluid.


    Ed

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