Upgrading a 2001 Cobra Vortech after cooled system with a 2013 GT500 heat exchanger

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  1. #1
    Senior Member Array cobraracer46's Avatar
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    Default Upgrading a 2001 Cobra Vortech after cooled system with a 2013 GT500 heat exchanger

    I've had a 2013 GT500 heat exchanger stashed away for quite a while in order to replace the small Vortech unit that is part of the after-cooled kit on my 2001 Cobra. Now the time has come to finally mount the 2013 GT500 intercooler parts on my new edge mustang. Of course a lot of fabrication will need to get done to fit a 2013 GT500 heat exchanger on a 2001 Cobra, but it should be straight forward. The stock Vortech after-cooler pump is quite small as well, even smaller than whats on a Terminator Cobra so that will also get replaced with a larger 2013 GT500 pump that flows more than double what a 2007-2011 GT500 intercooler pump flows.



    Massive is best way to describe the 2013 GT500 intercooler system. To quote a 5.0 Mustang magazine article on the 2013 Gt500 intercooler set up:

    "Charge cooling the supercharger's output has been the bane of blower Mustangs from day one, and with the GT500 now running 15 pounds of boost, even more intercooling was needed. This immense heat exchanger is the result. It measures 11-inches tall with three rows compared to last year's 7-inch-tall, two-row design. The coolant pump was also enlarged from 4 to 8 gallons per minute, and the pump moved onto the engine itself because the rear axle cooler's radiator grabbed its original location below the right headlight."

    Benefits of the larger 2013 GT500 heat exchanger over previous GT500 models:

    "
    Cooling

    The 662hp GT500 has hellish heat rejection to battle. This is especially true at high speeds, when the engine is working hard, and why SVT took a two-tier approach to cooling the new Shelby. That is, GT500s in standard duty cool just fine in base form, while the cars that are run at "... high speeds for a long time" are the reason for Track Cooling.
    Erin Gibb, the SVT engineer tasked with working out the cooling details, started with the supercharger's charge air cooler (intercooler). This took some doing. Apparently three systems were tried before everyone was happy, but the result is a massively larger heat exchanger and a coolant pump with twice the flow capacity.
    The larger exchanger and pump yield a huge 45-percent increase in heat rejection, which fully manifests itself at the road course. Whereas early GT500s would heat-soak after a few laps, then pull ignition timing for detonation protection--positively murdering horsepower in the process--the '13 GT500 laps continuously with only a minor reduction in power. We don't think you'll notice it. The car is consistent at the dragstrip, too."

    With improvements this good, the results should be even better when replacing the super small Vortech aftercooler parts. Furthermore, this modification adds yet another piece of weaponry to go up against the hideous automatic transmission turbo cars.

    Initial mockup of the 2013 GT500 intercooler
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    A comparison between the 2007-2012 and the newer 2013 GT500 heat exchanger pump.

    List price for the 2013 Pump is $250 While the 2007-2012 pump can be had for around $120 new


    2013- 2014 GT500 part #DR3Z8501A

    Harness needed in order to power up the 2013 shelby pump

    DR3Z-14A411-C


    First phase of the fabrication: building a bracket for the heat exchanger

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    Last edited by cobraracer46; 01-07-2017 at 09:48 PM.

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  3. #2
    Senior Member Array smashedheadcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cobraracer46 View Post
    Furthermore, this modification adds yet another piece of weaponry to go up against the hideous automatic transmission turbo cars.
    I remember my first beer.

  4. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by smashedheadcat View Post
    I remember my first beer.
    Yea he has to mention it every chance he gets.. He's the type to put down other peoples stuff make himself feel better, that he has the best car on the planet lol.

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    Senior Member Array smashedheadcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 98 Saleen Cobra View Post
    Yea he has to mention it every chance he gets.. He's the type to put down other peoples stuff make himself feel better, that he has the best car on the planet lol.
    I've noticed the trend myself. I mean, I like supercharged cars as much as the next guy, but when you want to take it to the next level, it doesn't make it much sense. I also hate chucking belts. I had to keep a spare and all the tools to do the swap on my old 97 vortech car. I also suffered through intercooler pump issues and a rust reservoir flange. I went through some vortech idler bearings and one tensioner as well. In comparison, my turbo car has been about 1% of the headache that my vortech car was.

  7. #5
    Senior Member Array cobraracer46's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smashedheadcat View Post
    I've noticed the trend myself. I mean, I like supercharged cars as much as the next guy, but when you want to take it to the next level, it doesn't make it much sense. I also hate chucking belts. I had to keep a spare and all the tools to do the swap on my old 97 vortech car. I also suffered through intercooler pump issues and a rust reservoir flange. I went through some vortech idler bearings and one tensioner as well. In comparison, my turbo car has been about 1% of the headache that my vortech car was.

    The Vortech set up on my car has proven to be reliable and I eliminated the chance for belt issues to pop up by replacing all of the drive pulleys, tensioner with heavy duty OEM Ford truck 8 rib steel units and using a vortech 8 rib pulley and a quality ATI 8 rib overdrive damper. Finally, I installed a heavy duty Gates Green fleet runner belt. Vortech like OEM manufactures, sometimes uses a plastic idler that in time will overheat the idler bearings, but that problem is easily eliminated when converting over to the heavy duty 8 rib steel truck parts.

    The Bosch pump that Vortech supplies for the aftercooler has proven reliable as well although as noted earlier, It will be replaced with the higher flowing Pierburg unit from a 2013 GT500. The rust on the receiver flange can be an issue I fixed that problem.

    In my opinion, turbo systems have too much piping, too many oil lines and other problems including managing heat. I prefer the super strong factory K member on my heavy street driven convertible so don't like the fact that turbo kits only fit with lousy and flimsy light weight drag race K members that have questionable durability.

    To each his own, so if you are a turbo guy, thats fine, but no way will I ever mess with a turbo kit on my 2001 Cobra and turbos are a non starter for me since any turbo kit for my car is illegal here in California. On the other hand Vortech has the engineering and the expertise to deliver a smog legal system while the so called turbo kit companies have failed to come up with smog legal kits and says a lot. In the end I'm totally happy with the Vortech kit on my car and thats all that matters to me.

    Stay tuned for more updates.

  8. #6

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    Jan, I believe you have made the point that Josh was speaking to from his personal experience. Each of you have chosen to address the Vortec reliability issues in different ways. You have elected to replace what you have experienced as troublesome Vortec components with better components you have selected, to be used instead. In Josh's case he elected to pursue a different supercharging model with turbos.

    I think you are getting caught up in a whose dog is better sort of dialogue. The whose dog is better discussion more often than not comes down to a matter of preferences. Try to focus your thread back on to the tech aspects of your upgrade and accept the fact that preferences are simply that preferences — they are not tech.

    You have no need to defend your equipment choices and you should not attack other peoples choices. All that produces is drama and that is not what tech postings should be about. People of a similar mind will appreciate the tech and shun the drama. Please keep your thread to the tech facts that will help others who embrace similar values.


    Ed

  9. #7
    Senior Member Array cobraracer46's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eschaider View Post
    Jan, I believe you have made the point that Josh was speaking to from his personal experience. Each of you have chosen to address the Vortec reliability issues in different ways. You have elected to replace what you have experienced as troublesome Vortec components with better components you have selected, to be used instead. In Josh's case he elected to pursue a different supercharging model with turbos.

    I think you are getting caught up in a whose dog is better sort of dialogue. The whose dog is better discussion more often than not comes down to a matter of preferences. Try to focus your thread back on to the tech aspects of your upgrade and accept the fact that preferences are simply that preferences — they are not tech.

    You have no need to defend your equipment choices and you should not attack other peoples choices. All that produces is drama and that is not what tech postings should be about. People of a similar mind will appreciate the tech and shun the drama. Please keep your thread to the tech facts that will help others who embrace similar values.


    Ed
    With all due respect Ed, you are mis interpreting the point of my thread. I've said it many times before that it does not matter to me what equipment such as a power adder people choose to run on their vehicles. What does matter is what I feel is the best combination of parts for my car and thats the main point of this thread.


    Ed, I was surprised to see your "whose dog is better sort of dialogue" paragraph given the fact that you have engaged in such a dialogue your self in many threads including this one https://www.modularfords.com/threads/...a-applications
    Your quote: "There is absolutely no finer piston available anywhere for our engines."

    Ed, I was also surprised that you said the following : "You have no need to defend your equipment choices and you should not attack other peoples choices, " given the fact that you were very out spoken with your opinion in this thread:
    https://www.modularfords.com/threads/...the-Terminator

    Your quote: offering a "Old West snake oil elixir to simply drive sales for their latest hot rod parts."

    Yes, Im fully aware Ed that we have our preferences in our choice of parts and as I have said many times, I take into account the trade offs and benefits in choosing a part. In this case I prefer to run a supercharger in my street driven vehicle.

    Likewise, to be clear Ive made my preference known for superchargers over turbos, but if other people want to run a turbo system on their vehicles, that fine. I'm not personally attacking people for making choices that differ from mine. What Im saying is that There is a difference between showing a dislike for certain things versus attacking other people's choices so the following statement is not correct: "you should not attack other peoples choices." In other words, its possible to respectfully disagree.

    For instance, I appreciate all of the posts Josh made in this thread and he made some good comments about his vortech mustang and the reliability issues he experienced and that triggered a good discussion where I talked about how I solved such problems.

    Finally, the following statement does not represent what this thread is about: "Please keep your thread to the tech facts that will help others who embrace similar values."

    The intent of this thread is simply to share my experience in adapting a Gt500 part to my vehicle with a bit of personal opinion thrown in. Seeing as this is my thread, I don't see anything wrong with letting my opinions be known. If I was going create a thread with the intent for others to embrace values that are similar to mine, then I would want people to treat others the way they want to be treated by showing mutual respect and agreeing to disagree and participate in thoughtful discussions that are free of personal attacks when opinions differ.

    Jan

  10. #8

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    Jan the comment you made that drew all the fire was the following;

    Quote Originally Posted by cobraracer46 View Post
    ... this modification adds yet another piece of weaponry to go up against the hideous automatic transmission turbo cars. ...
    That comment adds nothing to the technical merit of your thread and serves to antagonize users of turbochargers and automatic transmissions. The proof in the pudding is the responses you drew.

    The two posts of mine you referred to represent, in the case of the pistons, purpose built parts designed to address shortcomings in current alternatives. The representation about their suitability for a given purpose is a statement of that design focus. The asymmetric axle offering and my response was a red flag for site members who would be persuaded these axles would eliminate their wheel hop issues.

    As the inventor's patent clearly stated, the axle's capability to provide the wheel hop reduction was based on a detailed and careful tuning of the axles physical properties to a particular car, car weight, power level, suspension and tire size selection — all of which is a disclaimer to the universal availability of the benefit. Money is always tight on a build and there is no reason to spend on items which are marginal or can not deliver the benefit they purport without specialized efforts or processes that are beyond the reach of most enthusiasts.

    Your commentary is very different, it attacks others without adding any technical merit to the posting. That is simply inappropriate on ModFords. The approach you take encourages the kind of cowboy or keyboard commando responses that pollute a site with useless and unhelpful back and forth banter. I have previously asked you to refrain from this posting style. If you choose to continue to post in this fashion, you will dramatically shorten the duration of your participation here.


    Ed
    Last edited by eschaider; 01-12-2017 at 01:52 PM. Reason: Spelling & Grammar

  11. #9

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    Here's how you say it: this modification adds yet another piece of weaponry to go up against the hideous automatic transmission turbo cars

    Here's how you SHOULD say it:
    this modification adds yet another piece of weaponry to go up against the automatic transmission turbo cars

    Amazing what removing 1 little word will do

  12. #10
    Senior Member Array smashedheadcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cobraracer46 View Post
    The Vortech set up on my car has proven to be reliable and I eliminated the chance for belt issues to pop up by replacing all of the drive pulleys, tensioner with heavy duty OEM Ford truck 8 rib steel units and using a vortech 8 rib pulley and a quality ATI 8 rib overdrive damper. Finally, I installed a heavy duty Gates Green fleet runner belt. Vortech like OEM manufactures, sometimes uses a plastic idler that in time will overheat the idler bearings, but that problem is easily eliminated when converting over to the heavy duty 8 rib steel truck parts.

    The Bosch pump that Vortech supplies for the aftercooler has proven reliable as well although as noted earlier, It will be replaced with the higher flowing Pierburg unit from a 2013 GT500. The rust on the receiver flange can be an issue I fixed that problem.

    In my opinion, turbo systems have too much piping, too many oil lines and other problems including managing heat. I prefer the super strong factory K member on my heavy street driven convertible so don't like the fact that turbo kits only fit with lousy and flimsy light weight drag race K members that have questionable durability.

    To each his own, so if you are a turbo guy, thats fine, but no way will I ever mess with a turbo kit on my 2001 Cobra and turbos are a non starter for me since any turbo kit for my car is illegal here in California. On the other hand Vortech has the engineering and the expertise to deliver a smog legal system while the so called turbo kit companies have failed to come up with smog legal kits and says a lot. In the end I'm totally happy with the Vortech kit on my car and thats all that matters to me.

    Stay tuned for more updates.
    Do not get me wrong, I did enjoy my vortech supercharger on the cobra, and I am glad you enjoy yours too. However, I did have my share of issues as I mentioned previously, track record of reliability or not. It's been awhile, but I did go through at least two idler setups. The one that came with the kit was an absolute pile. It just seemed like a poor design, and sure enough, it failed. I called Vortech and I was told something along the lines of "a new version is available that addresses all of the failures with the original". So, even after coughing up $4500 for the kit, two months later I find myself paying another $250 to get it running again. After 5000 miles or so, that new design ended up as you see in the pictures. There weren't any other options that I knew of, so I had to cough out another $250 (plus a belt) to get the car back on the road. Could I have replaced the entire front dress on my car in an attempt to make the problem go away? I guess so, but I just didn't have the money back then to keep messing with that portion of the car.

    As for the turbo stuff.... well, they are capable of throwing down serious power. Are they CARB friendly? No, but I don't live in California anymore. Does that make everything without a CARB number inferior? I don't think so, but you may. That doesn't make either of us wrong.

    The K-member is up to personal preference I guess. The QA1 K-member in my setup is much lighter than the stock one. I don't do road course things with this car, so it really doesn't bother me. I would hate to have it fail, but I am not very worried about it as I don't think I've ever seen one break. I've had mine in since 2005, and it still seems to be fine. Although it is certainly a necessity with my twin turbo kit, I do enjoy the massive leap in hand room it gives you when working down in that area, and the weight savings isn't bad either.

    At the end of the day, I can acknowledge that there is more than one way to skin a cat. For what I use my car for (fun and the occasional track outing), the turbo setup was the right choice for me. That automatic was a natural step for me as the pain of changing (and paying for) clutches wasn't making any sense. I struggled to find a clutch that was pleasant in stop and go traffic, and also held up to 5000rpm clutch drops on slicks. I would imagine there are recipes that would do it today, but I could not find them 8 years ago. The automatic basically solved all my problems. Stop and go traffic isn't a pain in the leg, no clutch chatter, no squeaking TOBs, no clutch cable adjustments, no clutch changes, no missed gears, and more consistent launches at the track. The lifetime warranty is icing on the cake.

    To wrap this up, I am glad you like the setup you have, and I really enjoy reading of your successes, and also look forward to seeing you implement these fine modifications to your car. I don't really think it's necessary to jab at other members for their different path of making their mustang their own.

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    Senior Member Array cobraracer46's Avatar
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    As I mentioned before, I don't like turbo systems due to the dramatically reduced reliability and added complexity over supercharged systems. Likewise, the fact a turbo kit will only fit a 96-04 mustang if the factory K member is swapped out for a light weight tubular K member runs a chill through my spine because I feel that running a light weight flimsy tubular drag race k member on a street car is a bad idea as the photos below show
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    Furthermore, some people mention super charger drive belt issues and the simple fix is to just use the heavy duty truck parts. The Super duty truck drive belt parts have proven reliability as Ford knows that commercial heavy duty fleet customers will not tolerate reliability issues as vehicle break downs are very costly to a fleet operation so I followed that logic and thew on some front end accessory drive belt parts from a heavy duty truck like the one below on to my Mustang and the results have been positive.



    smashedheadcat: I appreciate that you took some time to contribute some good tech to this thread



    98saleencobra: If you plan to post further in this thread provide accurate tech and if you have thoughts about directing a comment towards me, show respect or remain silent

    Back to the GT500 heat exchanger install and progress is being made

    Size difference between the 2013 GT500 heat exchanger and the Vortech unit
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    Senior Member Array smashedheadcat's Avatar
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    Keep us posted on your progress.

  15. #13
    Senior Member Array cobraracer46's Avatar
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    The most time consuming part of installing a 2013 GT500 heat exchanger on a 2001 Cobra involves the modification of the front bumper. The factory pumper is made of thick gauge steel that is hard to cut so its best to use an angle grinder with a carbide chop disc. What's more, the bumper will be structurally weak after all the cutting to make room for the new Shelby heat exchanger so extensive welding needs to be done to gain back the lost rigidity.

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    getting the OEM steel bumper ready for welding to reinforce the center section.
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  16. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by cobraracer46 View Post
    ... 98saleencobra: If you plan to post further in this thread provide accurate tech and if you have thoughts about directing a comment towards me, show respect or remain silent.
    Jan I had previously suggested to you that;

    Quote Originally Posted by eschaider View Post
    ...If you choose to continue to post in this fashion, you will dramatically shorten the duration of your participation here.
    The post by Ryan (98sSaleen) was both correct and respectful. Your response was not. This is precisely what I have discussed with you many times. You've got one more shot use it wisely. Better yet, learn from this experience.


    Ed

  17. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by eschaider View Post
    Jan I had previously suggested to you that;



    The post by Ryan (98sSaleen) was both correct and respectful. Your response was not. This is precisely what I have discussed with you many times. You've got one more shot use it wisely. Better yet, learn from this experience.


    Ed
    Ed: I'm Chris, not Ryan, although we have similar screen names ;)

    cobraracer46: Respect is earned not given. You haven't earned it. I don't comment in your threads unless you bash, if you bash then I will comment.

    FWIW, I will add that I added a C&R GT500 heat exchanger with dual fans to my Vortech setup back in 2011 with great results. In Alabama heat I didn't have any heat soaking issues with 17psi on 93 octane. I did it differently with a Donothan Racing bumper bar. Gave a ton of room and dropped weight off the front end. I did a how to a long time ago.

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