new build process - Page 2

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  1. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by LITTLEMAGS View Post
    Yeah...I was originally TOLD by my original engine builder it was not sleeved. He no longer is in business after his son passed. (JT) Soooo....anyways, the rotating assembly though looks really good though BUT being a stroker package I went against using it in my turbo build and use standard stroke but with upgraded rods (oliver billet and big bore JE pistons)
    As long as you use the dead soft copper gaskets that Jim recommended and also the stainless o-rings in the heads with corresponding receiver grooves in the block you should be very reliable, Dom.


    Ed

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  3. #17
    Senior Member Array LITTLEMAGS's Avatar
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    Ed,
    I remember seeing this process is "reverse" to what the standard way of doing it is? Can you point me in direction so I can talk with machine shop...

  4. #18

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    The correct way to o-ring a block and heads is to put the receiver groove in the block and the o-rings in the heads, Dom. Somewhere along the timeline someone began to reverse this putting the o-ring into the block. That is the wrong approach! The correct approach puts the o-ring in the head and the receiver groove in the block.

    To put a receiver groove in a block you must have an iron block or a flanged sleeve in an aluminum block. Because race heads are always aluminum you can not put a receiver groove in the head. The copper gasket material is harder than the aluminum the head is made of which will mush out the receiver groove in the head and cause a gasket failure along with a head failure and a block failure.

    Here is a picture of a head properly o-ringed;

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    This is a pic of a block properly machined to accept the o-ringed head;

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    This is the way professionally built supercharged race engines are built. Flip flopping the order will ruin your parts and the shop will have all manner of explanation for why the damage is not due to them but rather improper operation on your part.

    If you are going to do this then you need to have a shop that knows what they are doing and preferably has done it before. You can not do this on an aluminum block w/o installing flanged sleeves. This is where the receiver groove must go on the flanged LA Sleeves sleeve flange;

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    On a big bore BOSS block there is insufficient space between the two cylinders for two o-rings which is why Jim uses and is encouraging you to use a figure 8 o-ring placement in the head and a corresponding figure 8 receiver groove in the block. The figure 8 configuration is achieved by having the edges of the two o-ring grooves just overlap each other by the width of the o-ring wire. When you install the wire it will appear to be a figure 8 with the adjacent grooves just overlapping between the bores.

    It is important to have the o-ring grooves for the stainless o-ring wire in the head and the corresponding receiver grooves in the block properly register so that the o-ring wire is positioned exactly in the center of the receiver groove in the block. If your shop has never done this before you need to find one that has or you risk ruining your parts.


    Ed


    p.s. The drawing is for a standard 3.552" bore Modmotor not a big bore. The bigger bore will necessitate a larger o-ring groove diameter because of its increased dimensions.
    Last edited by eschaider; 06-20-2017 at 10:55 AM. Reason: Added Postscript

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  6. #19
    Senior Member Array LITTLEMAGS's Avatar
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    thanks! I am calling the machine shop to inquire before dropping off.

  7. #20

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    Ed pretty much summed up the details. The BOSS block will require a figure 8 method due to the lack of space between the bores for the receiver grooves. I've had great luck with the SCE soft copper gaskets, but some folks will recommend Clark Copper gaskets as well. I like to set the ring protrusion at about 30-33% of the gasket thickness and set the receiver groove slight deeper (.003-.005) then the protrusion of the ring. It's very important to re-torque the heads with this method (bring engine to operating temp, let cool completely and then re-torque). I've seen guys have major issues with leakage when they forgo the re-torque. Lots of work, but you shouldn't have any issues with head sealing.


    Here's a picture that details the figure 8 method:

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    Last edited by Helomech74; 06-20-2017 at 01:34 PM.

  8. #21
    Senior Member Array LITTLEMAGS's Avatar
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    Spoke with my machine shop I had planned on using...I will be changing. They have done a lot of work in the past for me but they aren't well versed with the process. I did reach out to Livernois and they seemed receptive and said they had no issues with doing it. ( 4-6 week wait though...and roughly $800-$1000.00 for process) BUT they did say they had cracking issues with BOSS block HP going over 1000k.....???
    I don't plan on being over 1k...BUT I will be close to 900....

  9. #22

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    Where is Livernois saying the blocks are cracking at? I've made well over 1K to the wheels with a Boss block and no issues that I've noticed during tear downs. Have you contacted More Power Inc. in Sparta Michigan? I'm not sure how close you are to them, but I know lots of folks that have used them for machine work.

  10. #23
    Senior Member Array LITTLEMAGS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helomech74 View Post
    Where is Livernois saying the blocks are cracking at? I've made well over 1K to the wheels with a Boss block and no issues that I've noticed during tear downs. Have you contacted More Power Inc. in Sparta Michigan? I'm not sure how close you are to them, but I know lots of folks that have used them for machine work.
    i have not BUT i will call them..2.5 hrs away...not prob
    Last edited by LITTLEMAGS; 06-20-2017 at 07:23 PM.

  11. #24

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    Dom be careful of Livernois. When they are good they are really good. When they occasionally stray away the experience can be painful. BTW the pricing for the o-ringing is outrageously high. AJ just had his done earlier this year or late last year (don't remember which) and the price of custom sleeves, boring, honing to piston size, decking, o-ringing the heads and block all came to about $2K.


    Ed

  12. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by eschaider View Post
    Dom be careful of Livernois. When they are good they are really good. When they occasionally stray away the experience can be painful. BTW the pricing for the o-ringing is outrageously high. AJ just had his done earlier this year or late last year (don't remember which) and the price of custom sleeves, boring, honing to piston size, decking, o-ringing the heads and block all came to about $2K.


    Ed
    Ed, do you happen to know the name of the machine shop that did AJ's work?

  13. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Helomech74 View Post
    Ed, do you happen to know the name of the machine shop that did AJ's work?

    I do Jim, it is Steve Schmidt Racing Engines in Indianapolis. They do a great job, they are smart guys and easy to work with. The guy who runs the shop over there is an Aussie named Jason Schmich and to say he is excellent is an understatement.


    Ed

  14. #27
    Senior Member Array LITTLEMAGS's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=eschaider;2231138]Dom be careful of Livernois. When they are good they are really good. When they occasionally stray away the experience can be painful. BTW the pricing for the o

    I have only done one previous motor and that was with Tmensky before he shut down...so this is a mild learning curve...thanks guys

  15. #28
    Senior Member Array LITTLEMAGS's Avatar
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    working on engine bay while I wait...Name:  IMG_2644.JPG
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    I am going to smooth over portions of support and reweld some areas.

    - - - Updated - - -

    and YES...my garage is a mess...I know...lol

  16. #29

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    Lots of work, Dom!

    Well thought out and very nice execution — garage cleanliness not withstanding


    Ed

  17. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by eschaider View Post
    I do Jim, it is Steve Schmidt Racing Engines in Indianapolis. They do a great job, they are smart guys and easy to work with. The guy who runs the shop over there is an Aussie named Jason Schmich and to say he is excellent is an understatement.


    Ed
    Thanks for the info Ed. They are much closer to me then More Power Inc., might have to give them a ring when it's time. My local machinist shut down and now I'm looking for an alternative. I know lots of folks that use More Power Inc. and I've seen their work first hand which is excellent, I just prefer to drive and drop off my stuff, Indianapolis is a much closer option for me. I have a Teksid block that's going to be needing some attention shortly for an old 35 Ford Coupe project I'm hoping to start.

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