Build in Process, JRgoffin's Build Thread has Been My Guide Thus Far - Page 5

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  1. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by nightmare302 View Post
    High lift compared to stock cams. They are substantially higher and require springs due to their lift. In terms of aftermarket cams their lift would be considered rather low still.

    Their tested duration is low and after having seen multiple friends get sold on the sales pitch of "SUPER CAR" cams only to LOSE power to 96-98 Cams is my reasoning for drawing a conversation around the choice to run them.

    Again "best" is a loose term and semantics can dictate the meaning to that but if one was to assume best meant best performing then I would argue to my grave for that to be incorrect as I've NEVER in the ~10 sets I've seen installed over the years seen a single car increase power due to them. Most lost or maintained a statistically irrelevant amount of power after spending thousands to buy them and install them.

    I can actually think off the top of my head a car that picked up 20-30rwhp over GT cams by using dot to dot 98 Cobra Cams that he paid 200 bucks for and dumped his GT cams for 600.
    I believe the gain you speak of with the 98 cbra cams. I paid $350 for brand new GT SC cams back in 2008, no loss there. Its Nothing compared to the $1800 I just spent for comp cams with spring & retainers and additional money for tools to change the springs while heads are on the block.
    I will say that Now I am an expert when it come to changing the springs and rockers.

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  3. #62
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    If you ever decide to get some custom cams I'll give you a helluva deal on some.

  4. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by na svt View Post
    I've spec'd cams for quite a few high power n/a, turbo and PD blown cars and rarely are stock cams the best option for high boost supercharged combos. My experience is that stock cams in high boost supercharged cars result in higher IATs and lower power when compared to those same engine with correctly spec'd cams. Higher IATs require the timing to be reduced to prevent detonation and to get the same power as a cammed setup the boost must be increased. Higher boost means the engine has to work harder and this creates heat which is an engine killer.

    Those comps you had would be okay, albeit a bit long in duration, but 11 degrees of overlap is not a lot at 25-30psi. I've put many sets of cams in 25-30psi setups that are in the mid to high 220s and have -5 to +2 degrees overlap @.050. They can idle like stock and make more power when off boost than a stock cammed engine.

    I find it confusing why anyone would install a 4.0 blower that is known for heat and combine it with stock cams which will exacerbate the problem. It makes no sense.

    No opinions, only facts.
    When I was a kid I wanted to play ice hockey, I couldnt play because mom & dad didnt have money for skates & gear. after 2 years of me begging they let me play. My old man bought me a pair of used skate 2 sizes Too big because he didnt want to buy new ones every year as he knew my feet would grow. That said This is the Last supercharger I will ever buy for this car, I'll grow into it with the new motor I'm already gathering parts for. Once ive maxed out this whipples potential then I will go back to what grew up on, Turbos!
    As far as the heat there are a few things that can be done to lower intake air temps and or boost charge temps. @ 23lbs there is No way this whipple is going to be hotter then my eaton was, I was spinning the Nutz off my eaton, IAT's were very high, especially when heat soak and tuned for a street application. This time I'm going to tune it for more of a track only first and fill my truck IC tank with ice water.

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  6. #64

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    Man what the H have I been doing all these months, My apologies to you guys, no time for long stories lets just say life happens.
    So Ive been back at it, setting up to degree the cams. Of course I ran into a few issues.

    1. just like with the compressed air/valve holding tool, I had to make a custom piston stop because of these wonderful 4 thread heads.




    This is Hillbilly engineering LOL

    Next problem is one of these sets of Cloyes secondary cam gears I have (2 gears) must have been machiced by Stevie Wonder. They arent even close to the other set! On 1 gear the keyways are way off, you can see it clear as day, when I initially went to put the chains in the 6 o'clock position lining up the dots and marked links there was no way the cams would be even. if you line up one gear the other would not go on in the correct slot.


    all 4



    good set.



    Bad set.



    You can see the bad set of gears here, this is with the Ford OTC locator tool stuck in the back of the cams, I had to take the tool out and turn the exhaust cam to get the key ways to line up.

    Should I call Cloyes about this? these gears arent cheap.

    So for now I use the good set to get started on the drivers side, everything lines up good. I followed Jr's directions from his build thread, found TDC double check everything like 5 times. took me forever to set up the dial indicator. This is more difficult with the motor in the car. Finally got the hang of it and found the exhaust cam center line On #6. I rechecked it 4 times and its always calculating out to 109.25

    So that brings and instant question, if these are Ford GT super car cams why is the center line not coming out to 114?




    Next issue is I'm a little confused how to do what with the gears as far as advancing or retarding the cams, (make that very confused) Ive looked at the Cloyes instructions and I understand the different key ways of the secondary gears

    Also wanted to recheck with Ed on where he suggested I set these. Don't quote me on this but last time we spoke and ran different models I want to say Ed's conclusion was that 100* intake and a 105* exhaust centerline was what seemed to be best for this set up, but again my memory is not the best.

  7. #65

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    I've got to go back and look at the model for your engine Matt. I'll have an answer for you tomorrow.

    With respect to the secondary gears, the one with the mis-located and mis-sized keyways needs to be sent back to Cloyes or better the retailer you bought it from for exchange. Cloyes has decided to stop offering their hex-adjust timing sets for the Modmotor but still have some number of secondary gears available so this is one of those situations where time is of the essence.

    The bad secondary gear in your picture should never have passed quality control however, I doubt that Cloyes checks every gear. It is more than likely they periodically check a random number of gears and then let production proceed for a while before another check. I don't recall where you purchased the sprockets. If it was Jegs or Summit,they are both very good about exchanges and while the retailer still has inventory you ought to request a replacement.

    If the retailer is out of inventory they can get more from Cloyes pretty fast or you can take a shot at asking Cloyes to R&R the faulty sprocket yourself. Retailers like Summit or Jegs are both very good about this sort of stuff and generally (but not always) can get the manufacturer to respond more quickly than an end user like you or I might.


    Ed


    p.s. Here is a cheat sheet to help with the cam phasing using the Cloyes gears. I have attached it as a pdf file named Cloyes Gear Tutorial.pdf

    I have also attached a second pdf file named Cloyes Secondary Gear Instructions.pdf that has several very helpful photos on page two to illustrate the proper gear / key / cam assembly model Cloyes recommends for the gears.

    I have also attached a FRPP pdf named Ford 4V Cam Inst Instr.pdf that will provide an excellent step by step mechanical cheat sheet to help reinstall the cam drive.

    The use of the 9 way Cloyes gears on exhaust cams is counter intuitive. A brief chat will save you a lot of frustration. Give me a call tomorrow after work.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  8. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry1200 View Post
    ...So that brings and instant question, if these are Ford GT super car cams why is the center line not coming out to 114?...

    Didn't mean to ignore this one.

    The issue comes down to the stack up of production tolerances on all the sprockets, the drive chains, and to a lesser extent, the keyway locations on the cams. The consistent removal of slack from the drive mechanism as you assemble it is also an important variable you will need to manage.

    What you are experiencing / measuring is precisely why it is always beneficial to properly phase the cams to the crank during final assemble for these engines. With all the possible production variances across each component, you can find your final cam phasing measurably different than you expected.



    Ed

  9. #67

    Default it runs

    Its been months but Its finally Runs, started 2 weeks ago!! Car sounds pissed! I'll try to post a video. I'm still running the Ford GT SC cams like I had before with my 570rwhp eaton setup, but it does not sound anything like it did before. It Sounds like it has a .700" lift solid cam in it and I can only credit that to my friend Mr. Ed Shaider for his recommendations also teaching & guiding me through the entire cam degreeing process which I eventually mastered after about oh 20hrs Lol Can't thank you enough Ed. Our intention was only for performance reasons, the way the car sounds now is just a nice side effect. If it runs like it sounds and holds together it will be fast.
    So besides snapping a lower intake bolt & dropping an allen wrench down an injector bore, oh and not knowing the blower has no orings installed in it from the factory and a header nut that took 2 days to get off, Oh yeah everything else went real smooth
    Also In my effort to make sure I defeat my arch nemesis at the drag strip I did a few things that I thought might make it a little quicker.
    I added a Kirkey drivers seat, I took the passenger and rear seat out, I ditched the Killer chiller and heat exchanger completely for now, trunk Ice water only tank for now. I ditched the AC for now LOL right after I bought a brand new compressor too. Had a friend weld on MM sub frames and an anti roll bar. I ditched the gas tank evap. I cut out the door bars. The TH400 is also in. I will say that a stiffers cross member fits like crap with a Kooks 3" xpipe. the O2 sensors hit it and dont allow the xpipe to be all the way up in place, I had to cut notches in it for now but I plan to modify the stock cross member later, I think it will work much better. Oh and speaking of O2 sensors, The O2 on the passenger side header collector hits the trans oil pan, I cant even get it screwed in. Also note that the only way to get the trans in was to take off the passenger side header, they are Kooks LT 1&7/8's" to 2" primaries to 3" collector.

  10. #68

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    I am glad it finally came together for you, Matt. Cam phasing on these engines can make a profound change in the engine's 'attitude', but it is hard to communicate how profound the difference is until you actually experience it. I am glad you like the sound. The engine will have a performance personality to match its sound.

    One of the real nice attributes the 4V designs have is the ability to not only phase the cams to the crank but to also change the LSA of the cams . As you begin to change LSA the engine undergoes some fairly impressive personality changes, as you already know from first hand experience.

    When these engines are out of the car on an engine stand, the cam phasing process is challenging. When they are in the car there ought to be some sort of award for successfully completing the job — it is a man killer! The best news is you are past the pain and suffering and coming into the reward phase where you can enjoy your toy.

    Congratulations on a tough job well done!


    Ed

  11. #69

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    Almost forgot, Matt. When you install cams phased like you have, you always want to check for idle vacuum and the position of the boost bypass valve at idle — you want it open. If plenum vacuum is too low, the boost bypass valve will not open at idle. When the bypass stays closed it will overheat the blower and cause premature failure of the seals and potentially the blower if you do not correct it. The failures will not be instantaneous so you don't need to worry about immediate blower failure. The actual failure will take place over time.

    If you have too weak of a vacuum to open the bypass valve, Whipple offers a low vacuum version of the diaphragm that operates the boost bypass valve for low vacuum engine builds. If you have the low vacuum at idle issue and you want to do something until you get the new diaphragm you can disconnect the original diaphragm and use a choke cable to manually keep the valve open until you want to use boost. The choke cable approach is a nuissance on a continuing basis and really nothing more than a stop gap fix until the low vacuum diaphragm arrives..

    A vacuum gauge and an eyeball check is the easiest way to see if the valve is open or shut at idle and also where it actually closes as engine speed increases. Sometimes the valve will close only to open again at higher rotor pack speeds because of a vacuum forming in the inlet plenum as you begin to approach it's flow limits.

    The 4.0 Whipple comes with a large high flow plenum so the low vacuum at WOT phenomena, if it even occurs, is very high up in the rotor pack rpm band. If you suspect the opening at high rpm problem (which is different than the closed at idle problem) there are a number of write-ups on the site that show how to plumb the vacuum and boost lines to use boost to securely seal the check valve under full throttle operation. Here is one, from the TToC, with the approach that Dustin Whipple recommended to one of our members back in the 2.3L days, click here => Boost Drop Off Fix.

    The physical manifestation of the opening at high rpm phenomena is a falling off of manifold boost. If you don't experience it (and I don't think you will) then you don't have the problem. Two different problems both aggravating and both easily fixable.


    Ed

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