Waste gated Novi 2000 setup/build-thread - Page 2

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  1. #16
    Member Array 96slowbra's Avatar
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    Misfire fixed. Apparently the coil grounding to the head through the boot is a bad thing. Kind of strange that the other 7 boots are in perfect shape.
    20170921_163857 by tlaster1429, on Flickr


    Quote Originally Posted by 04DeadShort View Post
    Looks like a sweet build but I gotta ask whats up with that dent in the power pipe?
    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk
    I bought everything used and it came with that elbow as well as another power pipe that puts the filter in the fender. Both already had the dents in them from the previous owner. My guess is hood clearance as it is pretty tight even with the dent in it. I am going to do my best to smooth the other one out as much as i can before everything gets its final coat of paint.

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  3. #17
    Senior Member Array 04DeadShort's Avatar
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    I gotcha. Wasn't bashing or anything. I was just looking over your setup and thinking how clean it looked. Then I noticed the dent and could not quit looking at it. Lol.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk

  4. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by 96slowbra View Post
    Misfire fixed. Apparently the coil grounding to the head through the boot is a bad thing. Kind of strange that the other 7 boots are in perfect shape.
    20170921_163857 by tlaster1429, on Flickr...

    I would give your dollars to donuts that is your miss, Tommy. Good plan of battle BTW, finding this early sure beats tearing everything else apart and finding the broken boot afterwards.


    Ed

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  6. #19
    Member Array 96slowbra's Avatar
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    Everything seems to be kosher as far as cooling system mods and belt alignment goes. Currently just running a 6 rib belt until i get the blower on.
    20170927_180248 by tlaster1429, on Flickr
    Hose route will be under the blower back up to the crossover
    20170927_180227 by tlaster1429, on Flickr


    Ed,
    Are you aware of anyone who has ran the J&S Vampire in combination with the c.o.p. conversion on the earlier coil pack cars? Being that the oem spark is firing 2 cylinders at once would the system be able to distinguish which cylinder is detonating or just pull timing on both cylinder firing at the time. I see that they offer instructions for the 96-98 cars on their website so I know the wiring would not change due to the c.o.p. swap but would performance?

  7. #20

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    The firing of two cylinders simultaneously creates a problem for the primary benefit of the Vampire — individual cylinder detonation control. What I would do is send an email to John at J&S and listen to what he says.


    Ed

  8. #21
    Senior Member Array 04DeadShort's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eschaider View Post
    The firing of two cylinders simultaneously creates a problem for the primary benefit of the Vampire — individual cylinder detonation control. What I would do is send an email to John at J&S and listen to what he says.


    Ed
    Ed, since the subject was brought up, I would like to hear your explanation of the wasted spark tech.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk

  9. #22

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    The Waste Spark ignition method was an early attempt to provide computer controlled ignition in vehicles with early generation ECU's, Ken. The problem the design engineers were attempting to work around was the limited cpu power available in early OEM ECU's. The limited cpu power had to simultaneously handle ignition, injectors, vehicle accessories and most importantly EPA mandated emission levels. BTW for the same reason we had waste spark ignition systems we also had batch fire fuel injection so the ECU only had to do a single pulse width calculation and a single injector firing calculation.

    As ECU power came up the injectors became sequential firing and we went to individual COP style ignitions. Even with the increased CPU speed in say an EEC-V CPU it is not uncommon to find the CPU 'misses' or is a smidgen tardy in calculating these events above 7000 rpm or in an engine that rpms quickly. It is possible to shut down a lot of the 'other stuff' Ford has asked the ECU to do and if our tune is not set to run the ECU at the highest clock speed we can alter that in our tunes and pick up a smidgen of head room.

    By and large however, there is about as much reason to run wasted spark ignition systems today as there is to switch back to batch fire injectors. Wherever they exist you must swap out the ECU for a later generation CPU if you intend to go the COP route. I would recommend something from 2007 or later. Best approach however is to go aftermarket.

    Usually when you look at the aftermarket systems the heavy weight champs like Motec, Haltech, BigStuff-3 will do anything you want and do it up to 10,000 rpm and beyond. The problem invariably is the pricing. Complete systems will end up between $4K and $5K unless of course it is Motec. Motec has a qualifying question they ask prior to sale. They want to know if you own your own home.

    There is however an excellent alternative available today that will give you the entire CPU and wiring harness for $1,495, it is MS3Pro-Ultimate <= clickable. You take your sensor and injector connectors off your existing OEM harness and put them on the ends of the wiring harness that came with the ECU and you're done buying stuff unless you want to add EGT sensors, dual widebands (an excellent idea) etc. A real nice feature is the ECU can be calibrated to your existing sensors so you do not have to buy special new sensors from the EFI manufacturer.

    Originating in 1993, The MegaSquirt software is among the oldest and most mature of any system out there today and it offers probably 95% or more of the features that the top end Motec and Haltech systems do. The MS3Pro system also comes with a Lifetime Warranty! This stuff is definitely worth a look see especially if you are bumping into the ceiling with the OEM EEC-V ECU.

    BTW with an aftermarket ECU you can then use the LS2 Truck coils with about 5X the spark energy of the OEM COPs. Brett Watson did an excellent writeup on implementing the coils in a very clean fashion. You can see what he did over here =>LS2 Truck Coils


    Ed
    Last edited by eschaider; 09-29-2017 at 12:56 AM. Reason: Spelling & Grammar

  10. #23
    Member Array 96slowbra's Avatar
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    Apparently the combination of over spinning the water pump with the 10% lower and old hoses created a situation that the upper hose did not like. The hose between the inline theromostat and the crossover burst coming home at about 1 am Saturday night/ Sunday morning. It split close to the crossover with close to a 3" split. Luckily I had just left a friends place who regularly drifts his 240 so he had a bunch of water and antifreeze laying around and came to give me a hand. Since I had the hoses routed around the blower which is not yet mounted I was able cut the bad section out, rotate the hose at the radiator and reattach and the crossover. I am planning on replacing the rad. to stat with a silicone 90 degree hose and the stat to crossover with a gates vulco flex hose to aid in going around the blower. The lower hose is a new gt unit so it should negate any future issues with over pressurizing. I lost about a gallon of coolant because I had to get off the highway to a side street to safely work on it. Washing the car Sunday morning turned the driveway green and the car still smells like antifreeze which is nice.

  11. #24
    Member Array 96slowbra's Avatar
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    Well I replaced the busted hose with a gates flex hose. Thought all was good on the first drive yesterday but the hose came off the crossover overtaking a car where the road merged from 2 lanes down to 1. After getting rescued with some coolant and a new hose clamp It seemed good to go again. Before taking off we were checking for leaks and and noticed blipping the throttle was making the hose between the crossover and thermostat swell a decent amount for a new hose.

    Here are pictures of the setup currently. The radiator is an aftermarket with cap provisions. I have the cap overflow ran to a overflow tank with port on the bottom to allow it to purge if needed but draw back through the bottom when it cools. Stock crossover was cut and raised 2" and one of the ports capped. Crossover goes to a meziere inline thermostat housing, thermostat has 3 3/16" holes drilled in it for a bypass and then to the upper radiator hose location. Radiator output goes through a gt hose with a inline drain replacing the original "t" fitting and then to the gt oil filter adapter. Water pump is of the stock variety with a stock pulley and the 10% overdrive dampner.
    20180430_202301 by tlaster1429, on Flickr
    Disregard the zipties, once the intercooler piping is installed im going to create a mount for the hose
    20180430_202305 by tlaster1429, on Flickr
    Lower gt hose I took the t out of an installed an inline drain
    20180430_202331 by tlaster1429, on Flickr
    Gt oil filter housing to gt hose
    20180430_202349 by tlaster1429, on Flickr
    Stock crossover raised about 2" to clear the blower
    20180430_202433 by tlaster1429, on Flickr
    I thought the hose pressurizing could have been due to a head gasket issue but pulling the plugs and looking at the carbon buildup on the pistons says otherwise. It also shows no sign of coolant usage or smoking.
    Checked the plugs for verification.
    20180430_202110 by tlaster1429, on Flickr

    My only conclusion is that the overdrive pulley with the stock diameter water pump pulley is flowing to much for the bypass holes and building pressure pre thermostat. The hose after the stat housing didn't seem to have a swelling issue like the flex hose did.

  12. #25
    Member Array 96slowbra's Avatar
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    This project hasn't been completely forgot about, things certainly aren't moving quickly however. I have made some decent progress in fabbing up intercooler pipes and intercooler as well as some of the oil feeds and crank vent lines. I have taken a ton of pictures but am not sure where I should host them since everyone with 3rd party hosting capabilities is charging an arm and leg for premium memberships.

    Ed,
    After digging into the details of my build and what my end goal is I started looking more seriously at the Megasquirt systems. I wanted to be able to switch between 93 and e85 as well as be able to adjust the boost on the fly with the wastegate. To accomplish that on the stock PCM I was looking at ~$500 for the eBoost 2 plus another minimum $500 for dyno and tuning time and that's if everything went smoothly at the tuners. This would still leave me with a flip switch and boost levels I would have to manually adjust.

    With the MS I would gain these functionalities plus the addition of knock detection, larger LS2 truck coils, gratification of tuning it myself, and a host of other features should I choose to implement them. I regrettably did not start researching the MS offerings when you suggested it nearly a year ago so I am slightly behind the gun. From my research so far I think my setup would be appropriate for a MS3 with a few additions such as knock control and the MS3x expansion. This would get me in the door under $1000 or roughly what I would have invested in a boost controller and custom tunes. Then the next step would be to the MS3Pro EVo which would gain me a slew of other options. I am not sure I will ever use the extra functionality of the Ultimate in this car.

    It looks like going with the MS3Pro evo would cost ~$300 over what I would have in an MS3x with required addons. This would also save me hours of assembly and come with their lifetime warranty. Putting this all together looks like the MS3Pro Evo starts to look like a no brainer in terms of engine management.

    I know I still have a lot of research to do on this and the car still has a while before it is mechanically buttoned up but this will be the largest electrical undertaking I have attempted to date. So anyone that can give any pointers or tips on how to make this as stress free as possible would be greatly appreciated.

  13. #26

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    You are reading the tea leaves exactly correct, Tommy. Although the EVO version would add to the price tag, you pick up the factory manufactured and lifetime warranty attributes. I have known several guys who had Haltech and Motec units, which are top shelf items and they, out of pure happen stance, found them selves in positions where a Lifetime Warranty would have been welcome — especially at Haltech and Motec price points. The Ultimate version of the MS3Pro essentially adds an easier I/O expansion path if you later decided you wanted EGT sensors yada yada.

    It is not my intention to be dismissive with the yada yada commentary but if you are fairly confident the build will not expand to include additional data acquisition down the road, then the additional I/O capabilities of the Ultimate version is money that doesn't need to be spent. On the other hand if you suspect you will be enhancing the electronics and data acquisition down the road then the cost of the Ultimate upgrade at the front end is well worth it.

    Engine control electronics tend to be a lot like modding the actual engine. The more we learn the more we want to explore and play. If you already have the foundation for that exploration in place it is still a bridge to cross but, importantly, it is not a bridge too far. The MegaSquirt add on list is impressively large. The Ultimate version might just be worth a second look ...



    Ed
    Last edited by eschaider; 02-26-2019 at 08:12 PM.

  14. #27
    Senior Member Array badcobra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 96slowbra View Post
    So anyone that can give any pointers or tips on how to make this as stress free as possible would be greatly appreciated.
    Best pointer I can give you is to skip the MS3 and go with a Holley plug n play EFI. You could do everything you need with with the 550-617N system. Having everything integrated into one box makes everything so much easier IMO.

    If you are on Facebook, join the Holley group that Swerve started. https://www.facebook.com/groups/1728023557521559/

  15. #28
    Member Array 96slowbra's Avatar
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    I've been wanting to pull the entire harness for a little while anyway to pull out some of the wires from egr , sai, and a few other things that have been deleted. So doing the wiring for the MS3Pro isn't what i'm most hesitant about, I think I can struggle through most of it and will be able to clean up the wiring a bit in the process. The tuning portion is whats most foreign to me. From everything I have read the Holley would make that portion a lot easier but I am not sure the cost difference is worth it for me. I am not afraid to learn how to tune even if the learning curve is a bit steep. I'm still weight my options but I am heavily leaning towards the MS3Pro Evo or Ultimate at this point.

    Edit: Also what is everyone using for photo hosting now that photobucket and flickr are charging an arm and leg for third party hosting and any sort of real storage options.

  16. #29

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    I think I understand where your head is at in terms of price vs capabilities, Tommy. Just in case you missed it there is a fairly impressive self tuning logic component integrated into the Tuner Studio software used to operate the MS3Pro units, see below;

    Name:  MSPro Self Tuning.jpg
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    Holley offers a good system, Haltech offers a better one and Motec is, well Motec. Almost all third party systems place a wiring harness burden of one type or another on you. That is a one time tax. The ongoing tax is the breadth and scope of capabilities. For a first timer the self tuning benefit will appear to loom big on the horizon. Follow the Ms3Pro manual guidelines, use their built in self tuning capability to get you out of the blocks, visit the support website if necessary and you will do quite well.

    If you are looking for something that can remove a lot of the hands on aspect in the conversion phase to one of these systems, the Holley system is a great alternative. You will pay a price for the benefit. Down the road, again depending on how curious you are / become the depth of the MS3 tuning options could become increasingly important to you. At that point you can always convert to something offering those options or you could soldier on. The decision in the end is a personal one that only you are qualified to make.



    Ed

  17. #30
    Member Array 96slowbra's Avatar
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    Took the plunge this morning. Local shop was selling a used setup with the sensors and plugs required for a modular setup. I'll be switching a few things around to fit my needs better but I think this was the right direction to go

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

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