Waste gated Novi 2000 setup/build-thread

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 4 1234 Last
Results 1 to 15 of 47
  1. #1
    Member Array 96slowbra's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Fenton, Mo
    Posts
    79

    Default Waste gated Novi 2000 setup/build-thread

    Looking for opinions on my blower setup. This is my first endeavor in the boosted life and I know most of you guys have been living it for years now.
    Basic rundown of the setup:

    • 96 cobra forged teksid with ~10.5:1 comp


    • Hand ported/cleaned up 99 conti heads with 5 angle valve job, btr springs and fully threaded inserts
    • 96 cobra cams installed @ 114/114 centerlines
    • Ported C lower with b upper
    • T56 with 26 spline rxt
    • 4.10 final gears(little steep for current goals but they’ve been in the car for years)
    • Car put down 323/327 std. With


    I am in the beginning stages of installing the Novi 2000 on the car, currently in mockup fitting the blower head unit and aligning pulleys. Ill be pulling the blower off and running with the modified cooling system and pulleys for the rest of the year to address any issues. Final install with fmic will be this winter. The plan is to spin the blower near max rpm(paxton's advertised 55k rpm) at 7,000 rpm motor speed and run it wastegated.

    Current parts I have/are installed:

    • Novi 2000 headunit and brackets, making custom aluminum standoff spacers for the 8 rib spacing.
    • CX Racing intercooler kit with 24x12x3 core size (https://www.cxracing.com/intercooler-kit/intercooler-kit-ford/intercooler-kit-ford-mustang-94-04/KIT-MSTG-9604-46SC-IC0022-BOV-OC) Upgraded to the treadston tr1245 intercooler
    • IW 10% overdrive dampner
    • Modified stock crossover, thermostat in upper hose and gt lower hose. Cap on radiator going to overflow.
    • VMP HPX maf and 3” housing(going blow thru with intercooler install)
    • Innovate lc-2, planning on a VEI systems clock housing gauge
    • 80lb injectors
    • Walbro 465 lph pump with stock lines
    • 8 rib f150 ac/power steering/alt pulleys installed
    • Analog boost gauge and digital fuel gauge

    Things still needed

    • 8 rib blower pulley, planned on a 3.25” pulley should produce just over 55k at redline, if I even take it there is undecided but it gives me room. Custom 3.25" 8 rib pulley bought from asp racing
    • AFR guage (leaning towards VEI systems dash clock replacement). Went with the vei dash clock replacement and a Innovate lc2 wideband
    • Blowoff valve (size brand preference?) Went cheap route with a tial knockoff 50mm
    • Wastegate (size brand preference?) Went cheap route with a turbosmart 50mm knockoff
    • Manual boost controller

    I plan on running one tune with 93 at whatever power level I can manage without detonation. In the future after all the bugs are worked out i'd like to upgrade the fuel lines/rails to run e85 and up the boost a bit more running two tunes and an eboost 2 or something similar to control boost. e85 station opened up down the street from my house so I will likely be going e85 and max out the 80lb injectors at whatever power lever that is with a little room for cushion

    My main questions currently are:

    • Does anyone see any issues with my current plan or parts selection?
    • I know i'm going to be venting a ton of air at this pulley combo and likely lower boost with only 93 fuel, what size blow off valve and wastegate do i need to be looking at to flow that much. I was planning a race part solutions 50mm wastegate and bov
    • How much is this intercooler going to hurt me flowing this much? What upgrades would you recommend?

      Current state of the car, don't mind the mangled inlet tube. Came with the blower, just using it to check hood clearance.
      20170902_182326 by tlaster1429, on Flickr
    Last edited by 96slowbra; 04-30-2018 at 09:47 PM.

  2. Remove Advertisements
    ModularFords.com
    Advertisements
     

  3. #2

    Default

    What kind of boost are you planning on running?


    Ed

  4. #3
    Member Array 96slowbra's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Fenton, Mo
    Posts
    79

    Default

    That is another reason I am wanting to run it wastegated with a manual boost controller. I am not really sure what the motor will handle boost wise and I didn't want to deal with the hassle of changing pulleys and belts out on the dyno. I was hoping to make around 12-13lbs and vent the rest.

  5. Remove Advertisements
    ModularFords.com
    Advertisements
     

  6. #4

    Default

    These engines in a condition similar to yours can easily 'handle' boost is the high twenties.

    What did you want to accomplish when you decided to supercharge the engine?

    Better bottom end,
    Better midrange,
    Better top end,
    Something else.

    How did you decide upon your supercharger choice, compression, cams and cam phasing?


    Ed

  7. #5
    Member Array 96slowbra's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Fenton, Mo
    Posts
    79

    Default

    Supercharger choice was decided by the used market. I knew I wanted something bigger than your run of the mill s trim but wasn't in a hurry to buy. A deal popped up on this novi 2000 with a few extra parts for a price I thought was not worth passing up.

    Cam choice was decided by the wallet. I already had the 96 cams from the rebuild I did before the c head swap. The cams were degreed to 114/114 based on conversations with Todd and my previous setup of a 175 wet shot that never actually ended up being ran on this motor. I figured i can always re-degree the cams later if need

    I gaped the rings with boost of around 20 lbs in mind at some point down the road. I forget the actual number, I have it in my notes somewhere, but I believe it was around .026 top and .025 bottom.

    I don't race in any classes or even regularly go to the track with the car so power goals aren't really set in stone. I just enjoy wrenching on the car and driving it. In my mind this was the next logical progression of things to do with the car. The idea behind a centri was a more usable torque curve on the street vs a p.d. blower and not as many headaches as a turbo setup.

  8. #6

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 96slowbra View Post
    Supercharger choice was decided by the used market. I knew I wanted something bigger than your run of the mill s trim but wasn't in a hurry to buy. A deal popped up on this novi 2000 with a few extra parts for a price I thought was not worth passing up.
    I understand.


    Quote Originally Posted by 96slowbra View Post
    Cam choice was decided by the wallet. I already had the 96 cams from the rebuild I did before the c head swap. The cams were degreed to 114/114 based on conversations with Todd and my previous setup of a 175 wet shot that never actually ended up being ran on this motor. I figured I can always re-degree the cams later if need[ed].
    The 96/98 cams are excellent cams, especially for the kind of use you are anticipating.

    114/114 is factory OEM cam phasing. For street use and in particular if I was after an engine that was responsive to driver throttle positioning commands I would advance the cams substantially over the 114 OEM phasing. While Todd and I agree on many things we hold separate opinions on others. He may not provide you the same encouragement to advance the cams that I would.


    Quote Originally Posted by 96slowbra View Post
    I gaped the rings with boost of around 20 lbs in mind at some point down the road. I forget the actual number, I have it in my notes somewhere, but I believe it was around .026 top and .025 bottom.
    Whoever coached you on the rings did you no damage. Those are good, safe numbers.


    Quote Originally Posted by 96slowbra View Post
    I don't race in any classes or even regularly go to the track with the car so power goals aren't really set in stone. I just enjoy wrenching on the car and driving it. In my mind this was the next logical progression of things to do with the car. The idea behind a centri was a more usable torque curve on the street vs a p.d. blower and not as many headaches as a turbo setup.
    For low speed throttle response, the PD blowers own the world. Centri's are next but boost (and therefore torque) does not typically begin to rise rapidly until after about 3000 / 3500 rpm. Torque increases tend to mimic the rise in boost. Both Centris and Turbos do not have the instantaneous boost that the PD family of blowers has. Of the two, Centri's can be easier to work with than Turbos because of their positive drive off the crank snout.

    If you have the opportunity to drive a Tesla the first thing you will notice is an unmistakable and immediate response to any movement of the accelerator pedal. Once you become familiar with it you profoundly miss it in any other vehicle you drive — except a car like a PD blown Modular Mustang. There is nothing even remotely close to the instantaneous vehicle response to even very small movements of the gas pedal. Turbos and Centris will not do this. A Centri will not feel like a Turbo but it will also not feel like a PD blown vehicle.

    Centri's work the crank snout and drive belt heavily. I would strongly recommend you look in the Terminator Table of Contents (TToC) sticky at the top of the 03/04 SVT Cobra Forum and check out the Crank Tech I and Crank Tech II threads. They will show you how to do the stud. The OEM crank snouts are tender and break from the kinds of loading belt driven superchargers provide. While nothing is perfect this fix is the cheapest and best fix out there for the Modmotor crank snout breakage problem short of a billet crank.

    Lastly, be sure to get a J&S Vampire (Google it). The Vampire is the only detonation detection and prevention device available anywhere today. It is about three decades old and it will detect detonation on a cylinder by cylinder basis in real time, as the engine runs and pull timing for that one detonating cylinder only, before the next ignition event. It does this for all eight cylinders, individually, in real time as the engine runs.

    In addition to pulling timing on a cylinder by cylinder basis it will incrementally increase the timing for each detonating cylinder until it hears the sonic signature of detonation again. When it does it backs the timing off to the last known safe timing threshold. There is simply nothing in the market that even begins to approach this level of sophistication. If you have a supercharged engine that you fuel from a station and drive on the street then this is a must have.


    Ed
    Last edited by eschaider; 09-14-2017 at 06:09 PM. Reason: Spelling & Grammar

  9. #7
    Member Array 96slowbra's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Fenton, Mo
    Posts
    79

    Default

    Thanks for the run down Ed. I have spent a significant amount of time on this site as well as talking to some very knowledgeable people in regards to engine building. I was lucky enough that my former employer produced some of the best engine refinishing equipment in the industry that they allowed me full access to. My motor also lost a piston skirt in a timely manner as I only worked there for 3 short years. I took 150+ photos of the build process with the intention of posting a build thread at some point. A little over 2 years after the first startup and I have all but given up on it. The album still has some decent engine porn if your into that sort of thing, http://s17.photobucket.com/user/400e...cobra%20engine

    I am aware of the crank snout issue and was hoping the larger damper would allow me to run a larger blower pulley and reduce the amount of tension required to eliminate belt slip. I unfortunately did not take the initiative to stud the snout while the motor was out. At the time I was content with just running the nitrous. We all know how that story goes though. I did take the time to upgrade the chain guide dowels as well as install new chains and cobra engineering secondary tensioner.

    The J&S Vampire is an incredibly valuable product that I have been eyeballing for some time now. I've read through the install thread on this site a few times now.It is still on the list of items I would like to purchase. It is one of those things, with a built motor, that you can't afford not to have. With the planned downtime this winter for full supercharger install I will certainly have time to do the install.

  10. #8
    Senior Member Array smashedheadcat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    South Weber, UT
    Posts
    3,921

    Default

    Depending on what RPM you lay into it, you'll see instant boost, especially with the wastegated setup. It doesn't really matter too much when you have 4.10 gears however.

    Looking at your combo, I don't see anything I'd add that Ed didn't mention.

    You asked a few questions though:

    Blowoff valve (size brand preference?) : Any of them will work. You basically want to pick the one that makes the sound you like. Keep in mind, it won't sound like a turbo car.
    Wastegate (size brand preference?) : I run a twin turbo car and use twin 38mm tial wastegates. I've had them for 12 years and never had an issue with them. I don't know how much air you are going to bypass, but I would pick the smallest one that would get the job done. I'm afraid the 50mm would be too big, but then again, maybe it wouldn't.
    Manual boost controller: Any of these will work. An electric would be better, as it would double as a boost gauge, and also give you a few boost set points.

  11. #9
    Senior Member Array cobraracer46's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Blue state
    Posts
    360

    Default

    Most people assume that its only possible to enjoy instant boost on a car that has a positive displacement blower. However on my 2001 Cobra with centrifugal blower, I see instant boost. The path to instant boost comes from eliminating the belt slip and spinning the blower as early and fast as possible by using an 8 rib set up, billet belt tensioner and an overdrive damper.

    High compression and using a heavier than stock billet steel flywheel are other tricks on can use to increase the engine response down low on a street car.

  12. #10

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cobraracer46 View Post
    Most people assume that its only possible to enjoy instant boost on a car that has a positive displacement blower. However on my 2001 Cobra with centrifugal blower, I see instant boost. The path to instant boost comes from eliminating the belt slip and spinning the blower as early and fast as possible by using an 8 rib set up, billet belt tensioner and an overdrive damper.

    High compression and using a heavier than stock billet steel flywheel are other tricks on can use to increase the engine response down low on a street car.
    You might see instant boost with a centri, but you won't see peak boost until much later in the rpm band (unless you run a wastegate type setup). Centri's are designed to give a linear boost curve, unlike a PD blower that sees near instant / peak boost down low. I see boost at around 2K rpm, but I don't see peak boost until my shift point.

  13. #11
    Member Array 96slowbra's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Fenton, Mo
    Posts
    79

    Default

    The streetability combined with ease of sourcing parts for install was what drew me to a centri from the get go. Having started with the 96 platform, short of buying a complete long block from a parted 03/04 would have made a pd blower install a nightmare. That being said I also didn't what the torque down low to be anemic so I thought running it wastegated may help that a good amount. I realize from 1-3k rpm may still lag a little but that rpm range is rarely used aside from starts.

    Test drove the car with the new cooling system last night. GT lower hose, radiator cap on radiator, meziere inline stat upper hose with a 180° stat and modified stock crossover to work with the placement of the blower. Temps were lower and more consistent than I seem to remember with the stock setup. Unfortunately the car now has a mean stumble/misfire and neglected to throw a code to narrow my search for the cause. Only changes from before are the cooling system, 10% od dampner and stock water pump pulley. I wanted to test belt alignment of the 8 rib pulleys before supercharger install as well which is the reason for the dampner being on already.

    I'm going to pull plugs and coils tonight to inspect everything. I suspect it is one of the coils slowly dying on me, I have no idea what mileage or abuse they have seen. I have another set I believe to be lower mileage that I may just swap in if i don't find anything. Hoping i can get it sorted out tonight I had planned on taking it to the streetcar takeover meetup in St.louis friday night. If not the trusty cherokee dd will have to be the oddball in the parking lot.

  14. #12

    Default

    Your thoughts about a coil or perhaps compromised wiring like a poor connection at one of the connectors/plugs might be the bad guy giving you grief, Tommy.

    When you said,

    Quote Originally Posted by 96slowbra View Post
    I realize from 1-3k rpm may still lag a little but that rpm range is rarely used aside from starts.
    I was confused. Did you mean that you normally drive your car over 3000 rpm in daily driving on the street or did you mistype and mean to say you normally drive your car between 1000 and 3000 rpm on the street except for drag racing starts?


    Ed

  15. #13
    Member Array 96slowbra's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Fenton, Mo
    Posts
    79

    Default

    I guess I worded that a little odd. Daily driving is usually under 3000 rpm aside from the spirited hop on a highway or desolate road. My intent of that comment was on the strip that range isn't used much at all aside from the start. I also have a n2mb wot box installed that I will be able to tweak once everything is installed to try and build a little boost off the line and hopefully not lose as much between shifts.

  16. #14

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 96slowbra View Post
    I guess I worded that a little odd. Daily driving is usually under 3000 rpm aside from the spirited hop on a highway or desolate road. My intent of that comment was on the strip that range isn't used much at all aside from the start. I also have a n2mb wot box installed that I will be able to tweak once everything is installed to try and build a little boost off the line and hopefully not lose as much between shifts.

    Got it Tommy.

    That's what I thought you meant but the words were steering me somewhere else.


    Ed

  17. #15
    Senior Member Array 04DeadShort's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Carrollton, GA
    Posts
    237

    Default

    Looks like a sweet build but I gotta ask whats up with that dent in the power pipe?


    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk

  18. Remove Advertisements
    ModularFords.com
    Advertisements
     

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 4 1234 Last

Similar Threads

  1. Build in Process, JRgoffin's Build Thread has Been My Guide Thus Far
    By Jerry1200 in forum 2003 - 2004 SVT Mustang Cobra
    Replies: 70
    Last Post: 05-16-2019, 11:54 AM
  2. Novi 2000 for 86-93 mustang
    By strokher racing in forum Power Adders
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 07-13-2009, 07:32 PM
  3. considering a NOVI 2000
    By 99MustangGTMan in forum 1996 - 2004 Mustang GT
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 03-24-2008, 08:36 AM
  4. Novi 2000's...?
    By ITSTOCK in forum 2003 - 2004 SVT Mustang Cobra
    Replies: 40
    Last Post: 12-08-2005, 09:27 PM
  5. NOVI 2000 for 99 GT
    By 35thGTvert in forum Turbo Modular
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 05-27-2005, 10:00 PM