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10-11-2017, 08:52 PM #1
Looking for advice on new motor build
Looking for some advice for this winters build, and I'm having a little information over load. I have an 04 cobra 3.4 Whipple, Comp Cams stage 3, built 4R70w, SRA 33 spline axle with 9" ends, 10 point cage and on E85. I wanting to build a motor to support 1500hp.
I'm a little lost in the best route to take, do I stay with the mod motor or is there a better platform to work with?
That being said I do have quite a few parts for the mod motor, I know I could use my heads and have them ported, I could use my block and crank. I have a Hellion single turbo kit, that I picked up earlier this year for this build. I also have a complete 01 Cobra motor that I bought for the intake, condition of the motor is unknown, I have it on my engine stand about to tear it apart. I was hoping the heads were good, so i could send those off to be ported and speed up the build process, as I'm still racing my car.
Few questions I have, how much power can I make with the 01 intake? I've read and see lots of people around the 1krwhp mark. The up grade to the MMR, Sulivan, or HPP lower and Sulivan upper seems pretty steep. Not sure its worth the coin to upgrade?
I guess I'm looking for guidance from other that have already traveled this path, it seems like I've already done some things twice? Any info would be great, pistons, rods, bearing, and a good shop to do the machine work.
10-11-2017, 10:03 PM #2
Is there a specific reason 1500HP is important? Would 1400 work? Is 1600 too much? What is the reasoning behind 1500HP? While we are at it, how do you intend to use the car. Is this a dual purpose vehicle? Is it a race car? Is it a street car? Although unspoken so far but also important is the timetable you have set for completion and perhaps most importantly what is the budget you have established for the project?
10-11-2017, 11:16 PM #3
No specific reason, just really wanting something I can experience some growth with. I guess it?s advertising mental imprint from ratings on rods or cranks but I have no specific reason to make that amount of hp.
I bet over the last two years, it doesn?t have 200 street miles on it, so pretty much track only. I?d like to have it done by April next year. As far as the budget goes I have no specifics, but just some money set aside for the cause.
Last edited by Givens; 10-11-2017 at 11:20 PM.
10-12-2017, 03:10 AM #4
While you are certainly free to build whatever you choose to, my suggestion would be that at the 1500HP level it is not only not streetable but potentially dangerous to both you and others. Additionally the engine you would use to produce that power level on gasoline would be capable of that power level for only a short period of time before the street usage would begin to whittle away at the power. Begging the question, why did you build it this way.
The basic engine would probably cost somewhere between $12K to $15K. The engine management will add somewhere around another $5K or so and then you would need to throw in another $5K for 'incidentals' that will pop up along the way like the fuel system stuff in paragraph 4 below. Depending on whether you decide to use a PD blower or turbo's you will find a few more thousand in blowers and supporting paraphernalia. A conservative number on the PD supercharger and toys will be around $10K. Turbos would likely be more. That puts your build right at $30K to $35K conservatively.
While that power level is possible on race gas it is highly improbable on pump gas. Additionally even though it is possible on race gas it is much easier to achieve using an alcohol fuel. If you choose to run E85 you can still hit your power mark but not with pump grade E85 because its actual ethanol content and the percentage of other additives is manipulated so frequently by the refinery and distributors that you can not rely on its quality. The good news however is like race gas, you can buy the race quality E85 from race fuel distributors like Rocket and VP.
Methanol will provide very high fuel quality, consistency and excellent power but it is destructive to the fuel system and anything else the liquid form of the fuel comes in contact with other than teflon lined fuel lines and stainless fuel system plumbing. If it leaks into a cylinder when the engine is off and the intake valve is open it will do damage to your rings and cylinder. In addition to the potential component damage associated with the methanol, at the power level you are targeting you will need some impressively large fuel injectors that will end up being much larger than 3000 cc units. The injector flow requirements will mean a custom manifold capable of supporting two or three injectors per cylinder, depending on what you elect to use. While you are in the fuel system department you will need to use dual fuel pumps that look like the Magnafuel 4703 pumps and then build a suitable fuel system from a custom stainless tank to the front of the car.
Methanol is on the Right to Know Hazardous Substance List and is cited by OSHA, ACGIH, DOT, NIOSH, IRIS, NFPA and EPA as a Special Health Hazard Substance and is considered dangerous in concentrations of 200/250 ppm in its vapor form. If there is also skin contact it can cause skin irritation, eye irritation, blurred vision and blindness. Inhaling methanol vapor can irritate the nose, throat and lungs causing coughing, wheezing and/or shortness of breath, nausea, vomiting, diarrhea and abdominal pain. Repeated exposure to concentrations in excess of 200/250 ppm can cause headache, dizziness, drowsiness, fatigue, loss of consciousness and death. Other than that it is a spectacular fuel.
BTW we haven't even come to the transmission yet. To survive the torque the engine will be capable of, you will need something like a TH400 or if you want to have an OD capability, a 4L80E. The trans and converter will end up close to the $10K mark which will bring your project to somewhere between $40K and $50K.
My suspicion is, street suitability not withstanding, this may slightly exceed what you intuitively were planning for budget-wise.
Last edited by eschaider; 10-12-2017 at 05:12 PM. Reason: Spelling & Grammar
10-12-2017, 03:49 PM #5
Building something for 1500 horsepower (or big power in general) is tough to lay out a recipe for, but this is what I would recommend:
Block: I would go with a Teksid or aluminator block. John Mihovetz is not a fan of the iron block in big power applications. Just take his advice, and avoid it. If you use an aluminum block, you'll want to keep as much cylinder wall as you can. That means, no +.020 deals, no big-bore stuff.
Crank: The factory crankshaft can hold a lot of power.
Rods: There are quite a few rods to choose from that have proven to hold big power.
Pistons: The Gibtech pistons that Ed spec'd out look really nice, and they would hold up. This is not the only piston out there though, so do your research. To make 1500hp, you may want to rev the thing to the moon. You'll need to strike some sort of balance with the strength and weight of your rotating assembly. Call Gibtech, accufab, L&M, or any of the guys that make the power you are looking to make with a mod-motor. These are the guys you want to listen to.
Cylinder heads: "c" heads will work at that horsepower level. Porting them will be in your best interest.
Camshafts: Do your research here as well. Ed has put together some excellent threads on this very subject. Again, if you want to do this right, you cannot go wrong talking to people that make big power with a mod motor. NA SVT, Michael @ L&M, John@Accufab, etc. These need to be selected to work in harmony with the rest of your components and desired usage of the vehicle. Cookie cutter Stage 3 camshafts are big, but odds are they are not optimal for your particular combination.
Boost: Without doing something in the head gasket department (O-ring), you won't want to go much beyond 30psi. Some people do it, but you are approaching the limits here. You may be able to reach your goals while staying within this threshold, but then again, maybe you won't. Do what needs to be done now. You can make 1500 hp at 30psi or below if you extend the rpm range out some. You may be able to do it at 7000rpms if you address enough inefficiencies.
Hellion Kit: This turbo kit is very nice, but I do not think it will do you much good north of 1000hp. At a minimum, you'll want to get a bigger turbo, downpipe and larger intercooler. Kits like this (mine too) are street kits built with compromises. They are great for 500-1000 hp cars, but these compromises are simply inefficiencies that need addressed at huge power levels.
Cobra Intake: This intake (in stock form) does not support high rpm power. Torque peaks at roughly 5000rpms and then drops off rather quickly as you continue to rev. To get 1500 HP on an intake like this (without modifying it), you'll have to hit it with a lot of boost (more than 30psi). With that sort of cylinder pressure, you are really putting some serious abuse on the rest of your parts. Shortening the runners will slide the power curve over to the right and will let you make more power. Of course this comes at the expense of bottom end / mid-range power. While other intakes do cost a pretty penny, they are almost a necessity for making the power you are wanting. Keep in mind, this needs to be figured out early in your build in order for the rest of your components can be selected to compliment your powerband.
Valvetrain: There are quite a few threads in here that go deep into this. You will want to address the passenger side secondary chain tensioner and also the timing chain dowels:
(https://www.modularfords.com/threads/...-Dowel-Upgrade). You will want to select quality components that are designed to work within the system's limitations when assembling this portion of your engine. Once you choose your components, you'll want to take the time to measure everything (coil bind, seat pressure etc.) Use the resources available to you do educate yourself on where you should set your camshafts when degreeing them.
I am definitely not a journalist, so my post may not be as easy to read as some of the other members here, but the point is, is that building a 1500 horsepower engine is not as easy as shortblock vendor websites may lead you to believe. You need to go in with a plan, and carefully choose each component. These components need to work together, not against each other. There are a handful of members that got it right, but the majority of us have not.
10-12-2017, 09:19 PM #6
Thanks for the info, I readily realize I don't have the funds to complete the build that your talking about but I can work towards that goal every year. I just didn't want to build a motor this year and turn around next year and rebuild it again to handle the new upgrades. Is my thinking off or skewed to over build the motor for future upgrades?
As far as fuel system, I'll have to add another fuel pump, and upgrade injectors, I would also like to stick with E85. Trans and converter is built to hold 1250hp, and the single turbo kit I have would be hard pressed to get me to 1kwhp.
I realize in April when I hope to have the motor built, I'm not gonna make anywhere near 1500hp, but I've never built anything and said whoa this is to fast I think I wanna go slower. The car will need to make the cruise at the track so I can run in the street class, other than that I'm not interested in driving it on the street.
I'm not trying to reinvent wheel, someone has already worked out the kinks and built a solid combination that works.
10-12-2017, 09:33 PM #7
10-13-2017, 03:45 AM #8
Although I have not spoken to the street manners of a 1500 WHP car, they are in fact quite unpredictable because everyday street surfaces are not prepared to hold those sorts of power levels, even with good tires. The upshot is the remarkable ease with which you can find yourself in trouble with no good escape routes.
These engines are not power impaired. If you supply the right amount of boost with the right amount of fuel, cams that are just close in terms of profile and phasing along with a tune that is again, just close then you can quickly find yourself in the deep end of the swimming pool. That arrival can produce an impressive mishap on the street.
Everything Josh told you is excellent advice. Where I am coming from is I do not want you to experience either of the two unhappy endings. As the architect (you not me) I would encourage you to build your engine to a moderate power level in the general vicinity of 1000 WHP or less. You will be extraordinarily pleased with the outcome and the car will provide you with untold hours of pleasurable driving experiences without an unhappy ending. That is not to say you can not get into trouble at 1000 WHP — you can. You just have to work a little harder to. In the FWIW bucket, 1000 WHP on the street is still a handful to control but down several big notches from the 1500 WHP territory.
10-13-2017, 02:26 PM #9
Here is my recipe for exactly what you are wanting. Prepare to open your wallet and spend if you want to do this one time. I feel at this point in time, I have every single potential weak link covered and I have beat the living daylights out of this thing for the last year.Code:
Engine: 99/01 Cobra Teksid Aluminum Block – 3.557” bore ’03 Cobra Crankshaft, Manley Pro I-Beam Rods 14518-8 Gibtec Custom Pistons 10.92:1, .180 H13 Tool Steel Pins ARP Head Studs, Main Studs, Side Bolts, Rod Bolts, & Cam Bolts Total Seal AP Steel top ring, Napier 2nd ring King SI Main and Rod Bearings Pro-Gram Engineering Billet Main Caps Teksid Dowel Pin upgrade 2004 Cobra Heads DB 9 Thread - Hand Ported – 314/215 @ .500 Manley +1mm SS Valves Todd Warren NA SVT custom cams (soon to install) Crower Springs & Retainers, Stock Valve Locks Accufab HD Secondary Timing Chains Cobra Engineering Secondary Tensioner Modified Primary Tensioners, .200” spacer Cloyes Cam Gears Cloyes Billet Crank Gear Shelby Mike Billet Chain Arms Sullivan Performance Intake Manifold, ported Accufab Single Blade Throttle Body Melling Billet Oil Pump MMR 7qt Oil Pan & GT500 Windage Tray/Gasket Custom Head Cooling Mod EMP/Stewart Water Pump, 170 Degree Thermostat March Performance SFI Balancer
10-13-2017, 03:01 PM #10
- Join Date
- Feb 2010
Your 4R will not hold 1500. Your 8.8 will be iffy at best at 1500.
Here is the list in my car and I am only guessing it would make ~1400.
- Teksid Block N/A
- CP Pistons N/A
- Molnar Pwr-Adr Rods F5933RFB-T8-A
- Eagle Crank 428135545933
- ARP Main Studs 156-5802
- ARP Side Bolts 156-5001
- ARP Head Studs 2564001
- King Main Bearings MB5219SI
- King Main Bearings MB5281SI
- King Rod Bearings CR868SI
- Head Gasket FEL-1141L/R
- 5.4 Custom Sullivan for 4.6 GT -
- GT-500 Heads -
- Valve Job -
- CNC Ported Heads/Guides Repair -
- GT-500 Manifolds V-band -
- Intake Gasket 9R3Z-9439-A
- Header Gasket FMC-4G7Z-9448-AA
- H13 Wrist Pins .866 .200 -
- Steel Piston Rings Napier cut -
- ATI Damper 918036
- Valve Cover Gaskets FEL-VS50477R
- Moroso Oil Filter Adapter MOR-23681
- GT-500 Alum Oil Pan DR3Z-6675-A
- GT-500 Windage Tray/Gasket BR3Z-6710-B
- Timing Cover Gaskets F3LY-6020-A/B/C
- Front/Rear Seals F5AZ-6700-A / F4AZ-6701-A
- Water Pump Gasket F1VY-8507-A
- Meziere Electric Water Pump WP346S
- Boundary Billet Oil Pump/Pickup -
- Coolant Ports 551501
Cams/Timing Part #
- Cloyes Hex-A-Just CLO-93169A
- Tensioners/Chain 9-0387SHX-OEM
- Secondary Timing Gear CLO-S790HP9
- Crank Gear CLO-S869HP
- Bullet Cams
- PAC Springs Int 1231X
- PAC Springs Exh
- Comp Retainers Int
- Comp Retainers Exh
- Billet Arms
- Secondary Chains
- ARP Cam Bolts ARP-M19AU20851L
- ARP Washer ARO-200-8749
- Cobra Engineering Drill Fixture 3003
- Secondary Tensioner 4001
- 10mm Dowel Pins 3003
- Tensioner Guides 95462
- Tensioner Guides 95463
- Tensioner Guides 95461
- Tensioner Guides 95459
- JW MEGA TH400 N/A
- Neil Chance Bolt Together Convertor N/A
- Stiflers TH-400 Mount STF-TCBM20
- B&M Hi Tek Cooler B3270297
- TCI Diablo Shifter 620004
- Strange 10-way Struts S6005LM
- Motor Plate Kit TZM-MOD-MPKIT
- K-member Package 12-200 TZM-CMKMK-96-04
- K-member bolt kit TZM-KM-Bolts
- Team Z Outlaw 9 TZM-OL-BI9
- Team Z Coilover Mount Bar TZM-RCOM
- Coilover Shock Bracket TZM-AddCOSB
- Team Z Labor/Shipping Labor/Shipping
- Strange Iron Pro Case Spool PRF105
- Strange Pro Race Axles P100858
- Team Z Discount Discount
- Team Z ARB TZM-XD-ARB
- Aerospace Pro-Street Brakes AC-620VR-LP
- Viking C309 Coilovers VIKC 309 AM
- MM Steering Shaft
- Flaming River Manual Rack
- MM Manual Brake Kit
- MM Bump Steer Kit
- MM Rack Bushings
- Torque Box Reinforcement 222577953681
- 8.50 Cage
- Rocker Bar Add-on
- Torque Box Bar Add-on
- Through the Floor Subframes
- Shipping on Team Z
- 95 Cobra Brake Booster
Fuel System/Engine Management
- Magnafuel Outlaw 1000 MP-4205-BLK
- Magnafuel Regulator MP-9950-BBLK
- Magnafuel 74 Micron Filter MP-7008-BLK
- Magnafuel 24 Micron Filter MP-7009-BLK
- RRC 20 Gal Pro Fuel Cell RHC-18-0220-SU
- Siemans Deka 220lb Injector FI114212
- MAP Sensor 3.5 BAR Holley 554-134
- Holley Digital Dash 553-106
- NTK 02 Sensor x2 554-100
- Dominator ECU 554-114
- Transbrake Module 554-128
- Smart Coils x8 556-112
- Main Harness for Smart Coils 558-113
- Ford Injector Harness 558-213
- Main Power Harness 558-308
- J2A Aux Harness 558-401
- J2B Aux Harness 558-402
- GPS for Digital Dash 554-140
- MAC Solenoids x2 35A-AAA-DDBA-1BA
- 0-100 psi Sender (5v)
- Coil Brackets
- Custom Plug Wires
This list does not include the turbo kit which was custom made by me or any of the wheels/tires/body parts.
Expect to spend 50k+ if you do the work yourself. If you pay someone to do it ALL expect to write a check for 75k+.
Last edited by nightmare302; 10-13-2017 at 03:08 PM.
10-13-2017, 03:55 PM #11
Thanks for weighing in Tony and Cody.
Kris, these guys have already been where you are planning to go. If you pay attention to their counsel, they can save you a lot of unhappiness.
10-13-2017, 06:48 PM #12
10-13-2017, 06:59 PM #13
10-13-2017, 08:10 PM #14
I guess I should have been more clear in my first post, I probably don't communicate well on a forum as I would in person. I'm more of a stalker on forums than taking an active roll in them.
That being said I do know what kind of money it take to build a car to run at that 1500hp potential, and I wish I had that sort of money to pull that off. What I'm trying to accomplish is building a motor that is one day capable of that HP range or somewhere in that ball park.
I really hadn't made a specific budget but I was thinking I could get it done for about $12k, but if it takes more than that I have no problem spending the money to get it done right.
For the winter build, I want to get the motor built, run the single turbo I picked up this year, add additional fuel pump and upgrade injectors. I'm on the fence about the fuel management system, the more I get done this winter is less I have to do next winter.
Then next year, custom twin turbo setup, upgrade trans to a glide or th400, and I'm in the ball park of the whole reason I'm building the motor this winter.
I hope this clarifies my intentions.
10-14-2017, 02:00 PM #15
Not a problem, Kris. None of us are journalists.
The build plan that works best for most guys is buy the very best pieces you can afford for non consumables and buy suitable pieces for consumables that you will replace as you climb the power ladder. A non-consumable for example would be a crankshaft or connecting rods and to a lesser extent heads, if you go the GT500 route. A consumable would be something like rings and pistons. A replaceable would be something like cams and blowers.
As you go up the power scale you will make changes to your engine recipe for things like the fuel of choice you elect to use, the boost you intend to use and among other things the compression ratio you intend to use for that fuel. You want to choose for longevity when you select things like cranks, rods, and to a lesser extent heads and blocks. Teksids or Aluminators are relatively speaking, cheap and easily prepped for high output usage.
Cranks and rods that will operate reliably at the 1500HP and higher levels are anything but inexpensive but good investments none the less because they typically do not require replacement as you build to higher power levels. Your pistons and the c/r they are built to will by and large be fuel and boost dependent. What you use for pump grade fuels will be insufficient for what you will use with racing fuels. Once you get to the racing fuel threshold the pistons will change again based on your race fuel of choice. With the alcohols, especially methanol, the sky is essentially the limit. 13:1 is not to much in a boosted engine if the fuel is methanol but not even close to appropriate if the fuel is not methanol.
It is always good practice to buy the very best for the non consumables, and choose wisely for your consumables.
Last edited by eschaider; 10-14-2017 at 02:03 PM. Reason: Spelling & Grammar
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