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  1. #46
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    Default secondary cam chain Fail

    Hi guys well i had a couple of hours to do a partial teardown of my engine and here is what i found.

    the secondary chain has stretched and broken it has no identifying marks on it whatsoever...the primary chain is a Morse.

    i believe the sprocket let go first and began bunching itself into and oval shape which stretched and broke the chain.

    when i look at the tool steel key it shows evidence of stress and trauma beyond a single event... the sprocket cracked and the key kept driving it until disintegration.

    Im no expert but The sprocket appears to be either Cast or powdered metal.

    the crank sprocket is supposed to be high quality but it has a definite chan wear pattern after only about 12 hours in service.

    4 intake valves kissed the pistons and closed.. 4 have slightly bent stems and remain open... i believe this damage was post event.

    Attachment 169649Attachment 169651Attachment 169653Attachment 169655Attachment 169657Attachment 169659Attachment 169661Attachment 169663Attachment 169665

    oh well need to order more parts

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  3. #47

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    I agree with your post mortem, Jonathan. That secondary gear looks suspiciously like a powdered metal piece. Can you get a better pic of the surface of the gear along one of the crack faces.

    The crank gear shows a heat treatment on the teeth, visible from the blued / rainbow colors around each set of drive teeth. That does not mean it is a steel gear it could be something else. In the pic I couldn't see tooling marks around the OD from machining the gear. Again it might be the pic but it also could be a powdered metal gear. Look at the keyway in the gear. If it is a smooth continuous square cut from front to back like a broach would leave it is probably steel. If it has a molded appearance at the front or rear of the keyway it is most likely powdered metal.

    Cloyes should still have their steel crank gears which are used on all versions of the engine 2V / 3V / and 4V. If they do not then the next best source in Boundry's Pump Division folks who make the aftermarket oil pumps. At the PRI show this year I saw billet steel crank gears which they made for Coyote's in their booth. The booth folks said they had them for ModMotors also. It might be worth a call. FWIW they ar 2x the Cloyes price but have added some nice design features to improve gear strength.

    Good adjustable steel cam gears are hard to come by since Cloyes stopped making them. I would check Michael at L&M and also Accufab to see if they have any alternatives. If they do not, then it might be worth the effort to ask Boundry about their willingness to build them. Worst case scenario it is always possible to go to an aftermarket sprocket manufacturer give him a stock gear and ask him to build some for you. If you do be sure to build them as 9-way Cloyes clones not the 7 way pieces that I believe are made in Australia. Use a good steel like 8620 and be sure to heat treat them after they are finished machined.

    Something to keep in the back of your head is the beating that a 2-step gives to valve train drive components. Instead of a smooth continuous pull the 2-step continuously shocks the drive chains and gears. That beating is savage and typically the root cause of failures like this one.


    Ed


    p.s. Here is a link to the Boundry site listing showing their crank gear => Boundry Crank Gear This is a 21 tooth gear like the 4.6 and early 5.4 engines use. The late GT500 engines used a 19 or 20 tooth gear to reduce the size of the exhaust cam primary drive sprocket. Ford wanted to reduce the valve cover height apparently for some in chassis fitment considerations. That meant a smaller primary drive gear on the exhaust and an associated smaller crank gear. Our engines use 21 tooth crank gears and 42 tooth cam gears. The Boundry piece is a 21 tooth crank gear — just what the Doctor ordered.

    In the FWIW bucket it is made of heat treated 4340 which is much tougher than 8620.

    p.p.s. I just chatted with Travis at Boundry. He said they have been looking at producing a steel 9-way adjustable secondary gear since Cloyes has stepped out of the market. I am sending him some stuff on the gears in the next few days so he can have a look at what it might take to make this happen. More to come ...
    Last edited by eschaider; 01-24-2019 at 10:55 AM. Reason: Added postscript

  4. #48
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    Default

    Hi Ed thanks for the very informative reply...I am in touch with Brandan at LM engines, I’m looking at best options for me.

    I do not use a 2 step just transbrake and right foot😄.

    Here is a clear pic.

    Best regards Jonathan
    Attached Images Attached Images  

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  6. #49

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    Looking at that pic, my bet is we are looking at powdered metal there, Jonathan.

    I was talking to Michael at L&M earlier today and he told me they were going to have the gears custom made for L&M. So that should take some sting away from the availability issue. I also had chat with Travis at Boundary today. I am going to be sending him a Cloyes sprocket for him to evaluate. I'd say there is a 50/50 chance that Boundary might add the gears to their product offerings. Near term Michael @ L&M would be the short way home.


    Ed


    p.s. To break one of those gears w/o a two step I would bet they were powdered metal possibly with the keyways cut after the gear was formed. If that were the case it could easily explain the failure. Two steps are a good thing to avoid if at all possible. The beating they give the valvetrain's chain drives is unholy.
    Last edited by eschaider; 01-24-2019 at 10:32 PM. Reason: Added Postscript

  7. #50
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    Default

    Hi Ed,
    i am reviewing a few options at the moment as to a way forward...evaluating a short term repair over a possible full rebuild with sleeves etc.
    i won't be going for the two step,, no need i already have more power than we can put on the ground, this new setup has been great i wish it had hung together longer as i will miss the second race of our short season due work and being broken.

  8. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderbolt287 View Post
    Hi Ed,
    i am reviewing a few options at the moment as to a way forward...evaluating a short term repair over a possible full rebuild with sleeves etc.
    i won't be going for the two step,, no need i already have more power than we can put on the ground, this new setup has been great i wish it had hung together longer as i will miss the second race of our short season due work and being broken.
    These toys of ours always find the best ways to abuse us, Jonathan. In situations like you are experiencing, I usually find it worthwhile to step back take a deep breath and begin anew with deliberate decisions and steps to increase the reliability (and it goes w/o saying power ).

    Discretion might be the better part of valor this go around ...


    Ed


    p.s. I have some models for the cams ready this evening.

  9. #52
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    Default

    Hi Guys I got my LA sleeves and dropped them at the Machine shop with my Teksid Block.

    They were asking me how many thousands I wanted the sleeves to protrude after installation.. I was thinking that about 006 thousands then clip them all together to about 003 thousand ...any thoughts?

    Thanks

  10. #53

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    You are spot on Jonathan! You want to target a 0.003" to 0.005" protrusion above the block deck when finished. That means you're 0.006" target for the installed but unfinished deck is right in the sweet spot. Don't forget the o-ring receiver grooves in the sleeve flange.

    Here are a couple of pics from SCE gaskets that will help with the o-ring installation. For reasons I can not fathom SCE chooses to illustrate the assembly just the opposite of how you want to do it for aluminum heads.

    Here is their pic;

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    As you can see they want to place the o-ring in the cylinder block. This is not a good way to build the engine especially if you use Aluminum heads.

    This is their picture of how to prepare the head;

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    Again the right idea but just backwards. If you install the o-rings this way the harder copper gasket material will mush out the softer aluminum receiver groove in the head and you will have combustion gases, that are first cousins to a cutting torch, forced out between the copper gasket and the cylinder head.

    The correct way to install the receiver grooves and o-rings is to put the o-rings in the heads and the receiver grooves in the sleeve flanges. The SCE metrics for groove depth and o-ring height above the gasket surface are correct they just have the locations mis-matched. The stainless o-ring always goes in the head and the receiver groove always goes in the top of the sleeve.

    Here is a pic of a blown Chrysler head with the stainless o-rings properly located in the head;

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    Here is a pic of the corresponding receiver grooves properly located in the top of the sleeve flanges;

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    It goes without saying that the o-ring and the receiver groove require the correct placement to register correctly with each other. The easiest way is to use the dowel pin locations in the head and block to be consistent with the placement. Bore centers on the engine are at 100 mm so the step from bore to bore should also be 100 mm for proper registration.



    Ed
    Last edited by eschaider; 07-02-2019 at 12:56 PM. Reason: Added pics and additional detail

  11. #54
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    Hi Ed thanks for the excellent information 😃

    I originally was thinking to go with the O ring style but had then thought of continuing with Felpro 9790 PT2 and 9762 PT2 laminated gaskets that I have been using up to now.

    Thy thoughts are that we will ultimately be in the 1200-1500HP range ...would I still be ok with the Flepro or is it essential to go to O ring type?

    Thanks Jonathan

  12. #55

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    Although gasket failure is less power related and more load and engine speed related I have seen many, many cars in the 1300 - 1500 HP range that have successfully used the MLS style gasket, that's the good news. The bad news, if there is any, is more of cautionary heads up to keep an eye on your leak downs. If you lug the motor in one or more gears you can likely push through an MLS gasket. If you keep the engine speed up the MLS gaskets will genuinely surprise you in terms of how much power they can handle. The only other thing you want to be sensitive to is detonation. With an E85 fuel, while not impossible to detonate it, you would have to work pretty hard to, so you should have relative safety there also.

    BTW if you use MLS gaskets I would not use the stainless wire o-rings and receiver grooves. That style of combustion seal is for use with dead soft copper gaskets. Another word of caution is the amount the liners stand proud of the block deck. The dimensions I provided in post #53 were for dead soft copper gaskets with stainless o-rings. If you run an MLS gasket they will want the liner to be flush to no more than 0.002" proud of the block deck.


    Ed

  13. #56
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    Hi Ed well I have to decide this very soon so I can tell my machine shop what to do...I can’t see any chance of lugging I run a power glide with a 4500 stall,

    On another matter I removed all my block and head freeze plugs (turns out they were perfect inside) so want to replace them...Steel or Brass? I favor brass but I’ve never put them in an aluminum block or head before. I see some folks threading their blocks and heads and screwing in Big Aluminum bungs, seems like overkill?
    Thanks Jonathan

  14. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderbolt287 View Post
    Hi Ed well I have to decide this very soon so I can tell my machine shop what to do...I can’t see any chance of lugging I run a power glide with a 4500 stall,

    On another matter I removed all my block and head freeze plugs (turns out they were perfect inside) so want to replace them...Steel or Brass? I favor brass but I’ve never put them in an aluminum block or head before. I see some folks threading their blocks and heads and screwing in Big Aluminum bungs, seems like overkill?
    Thanks Jonathan

    The way the engine will get lugged down is if the car gets squirrely and you need to short shift it to get it back under control. Absent that kind of a scenario you will find it pretty difficult to lug the motor with your combination. As long as the engine speed stays up (and the engine doesn't detonate) the gaskets will stay in. Detonation, while not impossible on the alcohols, is pretty hard to make happen. Clearly not impossible but pretty tough to pull off. My guess is that with those two qualifiers the MLS gaskets you intend to use will serve you well.

    The down the road consideration you might want to factor in is the go faster factor. As you settle in from an operations perspective and also a performance perspective there is the ever present urge to push harder. That urge will push you over the line from an MLS solution to the more traditional stainless wire and copper gasket solution for supercharged engines. The mitigating factor here will be stability under power and at speed for a short wheelbase race car. You might just decide (from a safety perspective) that a certain performance threshold is not worth trying to breach for the next higher — in which case the MLS solution will work well for the foreseeable future.

    With respect to freeze plugs on a dual purpose vehicle that sees shared street and race track use, I would favor the steel freeze plug. The brass plug is more malleable with less spring to it than the steel which means the steel will likely last longer. The nice thing about the threaded aluminum plugs is the ease of installation, certainty of sealing and absolute plug retention under power. The under power part is the significant issue. If you blow out a freeze plug under power on a pass and the water gets under the rear tires it is as if you do a burn out — except at high speed where you are likely to crash the car.

    If you notice each of the responses I have provided you is looking at worst case scenarios because that is typically what race cars dish out to us. In those worst case scenarios you want to have the odds in your favor not against you and then hope you never have to experience one. The rationale is similar to the thinking that produces redundancy in critical systems and equipment on aircraft — which I know you can identify with. You hope an pray you never need it but if you do ...


    Ed

    p.s. As cute as that car is (and it is), it is a life threatening scenario. I like to stack the deck in my favor whenever I am in one of those scenarios.
    Last edited by eschaider; 07-05-2019 at 07:37 PM. Reason: Added Postscript

  15. #58
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    Hi Ed thanks for the input,

    I have ordered a bunch of 1-1/4 NPT plugs for the block

    Where can i buy the copper head gaskets and how much are they? also how about the safety wire I believe I have seen that ready made in the correct thickness and diameter?

    Thanks Jonathan

  16. #59

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    Summit or Jegs are both good choices for the head gaskets, Jonathan. There are a number of manufacturers of the gaskets these days. I like SCE partly because they have been around a long time and partly because their gaskets are cut on a CNC Waterjet table. Additionally they can make "special" gaskets fairly quickly because of their Waterjet technology.

    The gaskets are available from Summit and Jegs (same price). One style of the Gasket is called the SCE Titan gasket and the other is called the SCE Pro Gasket. The Titan gasket is a plain flat copper gasket with oil and water seals on both sides of the gasket that looks like this,

    Name:  46titan15.jpg
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    The gaskets are reusable and the oil and water seals will usually last two maybe three disassemblies. As they deteriorate a little RTV will reseal the oil and water passages in the gaskets back up again very nicely. The proper o-ring wire diameter is 0.041". You can reuse the gaskets six to eight times possibly more depending on their condition.

    The Pro gasket offering is the same but without the oil and coolant seals. The difference in cost is $51 per gasket for the Pro gaskets w/o the coolant and oil seals and $73 a gasket with. The part numbers for the gaskets look like this

    Pro Gaskets (no seals) — $51 each. L & R indicate left and right

    SCE-P466243L
    SCE-P466243R

    Titan Gaskets (the ones with the seals) — $73 each. L & R indicate left and right

    SCE-T466243L
    SCE-T466243R

    I went looking for the O-Ring wire at Summit and they didn't have it. Jegs does, it is 0.041" diameter 304 stainless wire. They get about $14 for enough to do 10 cylinders. Here is the link to Jegs click here => O-Ring Wire

    Here is an good guide off the SCE website for O-Ring groove dimensions but in the head not the block;

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    SCE likes to put the O-Ring in the block and the receiver groove in the head. This will not work. The gasket copper is harder than the aluminum in the heads and will mush out the receiver groove in the head destroying the heads. The O-Ring must go in the head and the receiver groove must go in the block.

    Here is the SCE guide for the O-Ring receiver groove dimensions. They show it as being in the head. That is wrong the receive groove must be in the top of the sleeve flanges;

    Name:  Fig-3-Receiver-in-headw.jpg
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    Again they like to show O-Rings in the block and receiver grooves in the heads. Should be just the opposite. That said their dimensional guidance is spot on.

    If anything seems wrong email or call me and we will get it squared away.



    Ed
    Last edited by eschaider; 07-13-2019 at 12:05 PM. Reason: Fixed Broken Pic Link

  17. #60
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    Hi Ed i have decided to go with the Felpro MLS gaskets.

    My Machine shop will hopefully be installing the LA sleeves this week, My Gibtech pistons are here and i would like to know your recommendation on Piston to wall clearance?

    thanks in advance Jonathan

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