Why You Want to Use Standard Size Bores - Page 2

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  1. #16

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    Apologies on the name miscue, Nick. We have another site member that has a screen name quite similar to yours and my brain flip flopped the screen names and real names.

    Ed

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  3. #17
    Senior Member Array RussZTT's Avatar
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    Ed,
    I went ahead and purchased as set of ARP 9mm side bolts to replace the 8mm side bolts on my Teksid. Should I just let the machine shop tap the main caps or tackle this at home? That's what I was thinking of doing. Think I decided to partially fill my block. I have been speaking to someone that is almost in the 1,300rwhp mark. He said at that level he had issues with the main bearings getting ate up. Since he partially filled the block he hasn't had any issues with the bearings. Going to order a set of Gibtec's after I get the block cleaned up of course with as close to standard bore as possible. Haven't decided on rods yet so if you have any opinions on that let me know Cams should arrive in the next week or 2. Heads are done by Kris S.

  4. #18

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    Any time you go up only a single metric bolt size, i.e. 8 mm to 9mm, you face a challenge with major and minor diameter metrics between the two fasteners and recommended tap drills for the respective threads, Russ. Lets compare a Class 6g M8 x 1.25 fastener with a Class 6g M9 x 1.25 fastener.

    M8 Fastener

    Major Diameter ...... 7.972 mm - max, 7.760 mm - min
    Minor Diameter ...... 6.619 mm - max, 6.272 mm - min
    Recommended Tap Drill size 6.9 mm


    M9 Fastener

    Major Diameter ...... 8.972 mm - max, 8.760 mm - min
    Minor Diameter ...... 7.619 mm - max, 7.272 mm - min
    Recommended Tap Drill size 7.9 mm

    The tap drill size for the 9 mm bolt is within 0.01 mm (0.0004") of the major diameter (7.972mm) of the 8mm fastener. Drills do not drill to size they always drill oversize The machining job is not impossible but it would require the use of a smaller drill and then a reamer to bring the finished hole to specification poor to cutting the thread. This dimensional problem is why I chose to use a thread forming tap instead of a thread cutting tap when I did my main cap side bolt upgrade to John M's 10mm side bolts. Thread forming taps use larger hole sizes to create the same finished thread dimensions because they literally form the material to the tap. You ought to consider the benefits of the rolled thread solution also if you intend to go from an 8mm fastener to a 9mm fastener.

    If your Teksid has the 1999/2000/2001 WAP style main caps your main caps can accommodate the 10mm side bolt and realize a significant step up in strength.

    Decades ago we used to fill supercharged blocks to make them stronger. The only thing it did was make our wallets lighter. The blocks did not last any longer. I don't think they do today either. You do loose your cooling system however.
    '
    Main bearing failures (getting 'eaten up') are oiling failures not block flex failures. Fix the oiling system don't wast time and money filling blocks.

    I would suggest you look into the Wiseco BoostLine rods.

    Name:  Wiseco-BoostLine-Rods.jpg
Views: 88
Size:  32.6 KB

    Don't let the Wiseco name mislead you about these rods. In terms of bang for the buck and ultimate strength I believe they own the high ground in both categories. They are flat out impressive. I saw a Modmotor push all five mains out of the block with the mains still attached to the crank. The Boostline rods were undamaged and went into the new engine without need for any service! This is what the failed block looked like;

    Name:  Block.jpg
Views: 88
Size:  107.5 KB

    And the rods (and pistons) were good as new ...


    Ed
    Last edited by eschaider; 11-06-2018 at 10:41 AM. Reason: Spelling & Grammar

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  6. #19
    Senior Member Array RussZTT's Avatar
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    Thank you Ed for the response.

    The Teksid block I have is from a 96 Mark 8 so the only upgrade I have for side bolts are the 9mm. I have a large collection of taps so I’ll see if I have a 7.9mm. I’m not sure I understand the “rolled thread” solution? So don’t use the 7.9mm?
    Those rods look nice, I’ll have to look into those!

    Quote Originally Posted by eschaider View Post
    Any time you go up only a single metric bolt size, i.e. 8 mm to 9mm, you face a challenge with major and minor diameter metrics between the two fasteners and recommended tap drills for the respective threads, Russ. Lets compare a Class 6g M8 x 1.25 fastener with a Class 6g M9 x 1.25 fastener.

    M8 Fastener

    Major Diameter ...... 7.972 mm - max, 7.760 mm - min
    Minor Diameter ...... 6.619 mm - max, 6.272 mm - min
    Recommended Tap Drill size 6.9 mm


    M9 Fastener

    Major Diameter ...... 8.972 mm - max, 8.760 mm - min
    Minor Diameter ...... 7.619 mm - max, 7.272 mm - min
    Recommended Tap Drill size 7.9 mm

    The tap drill size for the 9 mm bolt is within 0.01 mm (0.0004") of the major diameter (7.972mm) of the 8mm fastener. Drills do not drill to size they always drill oversize The machining job is not impossible but it would require the use of a smaller drill and then a reamer to bring the finished hole to specification poor to cutting the thread. This dimensional problem is why I chose to use a thread forming tap instead of a thread cutting tap when I did my main cap side bolt upgrade to John M's 10mm side bolts. Thread forming taps use larger hole sizes to create the same finished thread dimensions because they literally form the material to the tap. You ought to consider the benefits of the rolled thread solution also if you intend to go from an 8mm fastener to a 9mm fastener.

    If your Teksid has the 1999/2000/2001 WAP style main caps your main caps can accommodate the 10mm side bolt and realize a significant step up in strength.

    Decades ago we used to fill supercharged blocks to make them stronger. The only thing it did was make our wallets lighter. The blocks did not last any longer. I don't think they do today either. You do loose your cooling system however.
    '
    Main bearing failures (getting 'eaten up') are oiling failures not block flex failures. Fix the oiling system don't wast time and money filling blocks.

    I would suggest you look into the Wiseco BoostLine rods.

    Name:  Wiseco-BoostLine-Rods.jpg
Views: 88
Size:  32.6 KB

    Don't let the Wiseco name mislead you about these rods. In terms of bang for the buck and ultimate strength I believe they own the high ground in both categories. They are flat out impressive. I saw a Modmotor push all five mains out of the block with the mains still attached to the crank. The Boostline rods were undamaged and went into the new engine without need for any service! This is what the failed block looked like;

    Name:  Block.jpg
Views: 88
Size:  107.5 KB

    And the rods (and pistons) were good as new ...


    Ed

  7. #20

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    The rolled thread is a formed thread that uses a tap that doesn't create chips. Check out this thread for more info => Formed Threads

    Ed

  8. #21
    Senior Member Array RussZTT's Avatar
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    I like it, thank you for the link. Recommendations on where to purchase this tap?


    Quote Originally Posted by eschaider View Post
    The rolled thread is a formed thread that uses a tap that doesn't create chips. Check out this thread for more info => Formed Threads

    Ed

  9. #22

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    I like to use McMaster-Carr for most of my tooling, Russ. That said if you are familiar with cutting tools you can find some amazing pricing on eBay for infrequent use tooling — which pretty much describes how we use this type of tool.

    In a production environment I would always opt for the name brand tooling both for service life and quality. For our use, which closely approximates a one time use, the eBay tooling alternatives can save you a significant amount of money and still produce good finished quality (in this case) threading. To be fair you can also find new, name brand, cutting tools on eBay also at very attractive pricing so don't think of eBay as just a source of low priced potentially low quality tooling.

    McMaster will consistently provide commercial class, high quality cutting tool choices but you will also pay for those choices and quality.



    Ed

  10. #23
    Senior Member Array RussZTT's Avatar
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    Thanks Ed. It appears that size is hard to find. The side bolts are listed as M9. Having a hard time locating a closed forming tap for a 9mm let alone the size 7.9. I even went to McMaster’s website and they don’t list it either.

    Quote Originally Posted by eschaider View Post
    I like to use McMaster-Carr for most of my tooling, Russ. That said if you are familiar with cutting tools you can find some amazing pricing on eBay for infrequent use tooling — which pretty much describes how we use this type of tool.

    In a production environment I would always opt for the name brand tooling both for service life and quality. For our use, which closely approximates a one time use, the eBay tooling alternatives can save you a significant amount of money and still produce good finished quality (in this case) threading. To be fair you can also find new, name brand, cutting tools on eBay also at very attractive pricing so don't think of eBay as just a source of low priced potentially low quality tooling.

    McMaster will consistently provide commercial class, high quality cutting tool choices but you will also pay for those choices and quality.



    Ed

  11. #24

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    The 9mm thread size is a non-standard metric size, Russ. It is not that it is unavailable but it is very difficult to find. It is going to take a fair bit of Google work to turn one up. That said I would give a call to the folks at Advanced Manufacturing (the guys in the link above) as a good starting point. If they do not offer one they probably know who does.


    Ed

  12. #25
    Senior Member Array cobraracer46's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RussZTT View Post
    Ed,
    Haven't decided on rods yet so if you have any opinions on that let me know .
    The Manley 300M is one of the strongest rods available for the 4.6 so that would be my choice if you are looking for unquestioned reliability.


    This is the first thing we think of when putting high compression and 52 pounds of boost in the same sentence.
    But what's really important here is the impressive connecting rod--a Manley tool steel, A-beam, Pro Series 300M Lightweight measuring 5.933 inches
    and weighing a muscular 650 grams--and the bearing, which is still in ready-to-run condition. Fred attributes the lack of bearing damage to the 6.0-liter oiling mod.
    John had Manley develop this tough-as-nails rod for him; its main claim is its extremely hard material. Fred says it's so tough that it tears up the production tooling,
    but it's proven bulletproof, even after abuse such as this. In fact, although the piston pin is frozen, the rod and bearing are otherwise usable.

  13. #26

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    Appreciate your enthusiasm, Jan but we want to be factual here.

    The Manley rod is actually not an A-Beam rod. The industry and Manley refer to it as an I-Beam rod and it is an excellent rod.

    The rods are not made out of tool steel. The actual material that Manley makes the rod from, according to Manley, is either 4340 or 300M and their catalog does not indicate when the different alloys are used or which products they are used in. The catalog does imply the lighter weight versions of their I-Beam rods use 4340 steel and the heavier weight versions of the rods use 300M steel.

    300M steel is a modified AISI 4340 steel with silicon, vanadium and slightly more carbon and molybdenum than standard AISI 4340. 300M has a very good combination of strength and toughness when heat treated to the 280,000 to 305,000 psi tensile strength range. For components that are subject to cyclic loading and unloading like connecting rods, the fatigue strength and ductility of 300M can significantly extend the service life of the parts.. It is a through hardening alloy and is frequently referred to as a super steel.

    The most common applications for 300M steel in the performance industry aftermarket are axles, transmission input shafts, select transmission internals, billet crankshafts and connecting rods. In the non performance space, applications that you will find it used in are typically highly stressed components such as aircraft landing gear, high strength fasteners and airframe components. It is definitely not a tool steel and it is engineered for purposes and applications other than and different from tool steels.


    Ed
    Last edited by eschaider; 11-12-2018 at 02:58 PM. Reason: Spelling & Grammar

  14. #27
    Senior Member Array RussZTT's Avatar
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    Even though that is an extremely great rod, that will be overkill. Most likely I will either go with Oliver or Molnar.

    Quote Originally Posted by cobraracer46 View Post
    The Manley 300M is one of the strongest rods available for the 4.6 so that would be my choice if you are looking for unquestioned reliability.


    This is the first thing we think of when putting high compression and 52 pounds of boost in the same sentence.
    But what's really important here is the impressive connecting rod--a Manley tool steel, A-beam, Pro Series 300M Lightweight measuring 5.933 inches
    and weighing a muscular 650 grams--and the bearing, which is still in ready-to-run condition. Fred attributes the lack of bearing damage to the 6.0-liter oiling mod.
    John had Manley develop this tough-as-nails rod for him; its main claim is its extremely hard material. Fred says it's so tough that it tears up the production tooling,
    but it's proven bulletproof, even after abuse such as this. In fact, although the piston pin is frozen, the rod and bearing are otherwise usable.

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