Replacement 9-Way Adjustable Secondary Sprockets - Page 5

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  1. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stangman105 View Post
    So Ed, what you say about ford makes sense. They are a corporation and like all corporations the bottom line is profit.
    With that said why wouldnt they have done the same thing to the pushrod motor platform after establishing the mod motor platform?
    And why the hell does the mod platform cost so much more?
    Good observaation Craig. The difference was the 50 year old engines and the cars they came in were for the most part gone today. The components were being sold to an aftermarket with either fond memories of days gone by or a rest-vehicle that was taken to car shows. The last thing Ford wanted to have happen is to introduce a new Coyote based corporate performance platform and have a 03/04 Cobra take it to the cleaners publicly at a national event — it wouldn't sell many new cars. That was the real danger with the ModMotor. If you notice they tolerated the 5.4L GT500 Modmotor because it went after a different market segment. The SVT Cobra was a heads up competitor to a new vehicle platform, a platform that had to succeed because there would likely be no new ICE platforms again — the electric vehicle tsunami was fast approaching shore.


    Quote Originally Posted by Stangman105 View Post
    I mean seriously isnt the hobby ridiculously expensive already? And why cant any of the aftermarket companys get things done? 4 to 6 weeks ends up being 5 months. And that is the rule rather than the exception. I know some of these questions are more philosophical in nature but its really difficult for a person with limited resources to accomplish anything in this hobby. Is everything in life now only for the amusement of the rich?

    Seems to me all this stuff depends on the average joe to make it or break it and yet we tend to be excluded.
    Yes and no. Back in the day, if you recall, Aluminator blocks were initially around $400, cranks were cheap like Coyote cranks are today and heads could be had inexpensively also — because Ford wanted to promote the brand, line and platform.

    Once the Coyote appeared Ford had a conundrum they were faced with. The new platform in n/a trim was a better choice but as soon as you put a blower on it the whole world changed and Ford couldn't have that. The only option was to kill the old platform so Ford increased part prices and parts availability went away. When the smoke cleared the Coyote was the last man standing in a rigged contest. Not only the last man standing but now ostensibly the more 'affordable alternative' and in practice the only available alternative.


    Ed
    Last edited by eschaider; 07-12-2019 at 02:03 PM. Reason: Spelling & Grammar

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  3. #62
    Senior Member Array RussZTT's Avatar
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    This is over my head heh. I might need to find someone to do my cams when time comes...

  4. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by RussZTT View Post
    This is over my head heh. I might need to find someone to do my cams when time comes...
    Play with the workbook Russ and watch what happens to the cam phasing on the sheet. It is easier than you think. Just pick up the initial 0.050" before and after max lift numbers I used and follow my lead in the write up and you will find it amazingly easy.


    Ed
    Last edited by eschaider; 07-13-2019 at 09:30 AM. Reason: Spelling & Grammar

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  6. #64

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    Found something in Australia that you guys might find interesting. Take a look at this,

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    This is a Rollmaster kit being sold by, click here => Norinda

    They are 7-Way secondary sprockets not 9-Ways so you loose a little more adjustment range but definitely better than OEM.

    Google is your friend (sometimes) ...



    Ed


    p.s. Take a close look at the pictures. The primary sprockets place the adjustment fasteners directly in the path of the cam position sensor. That means if they use steel fasteners you need to replace them with ARP non-magnetic high strength stainless steel equivalents.
    Last edited by eschaider; 07-13-2019 at 09:32 AM. Reason: Added Postscript

  7. #65
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    Hi Guys I would caution you on theses parts from Rollmaster.

    This is the identical set that used to be sold by MMR- made by Rollmaster and I did buy them and install them in my race engine.

    One of the secondary gears cracked the disintegrated breaking the secondary chain and bending a bunch of valves.

    The gears are not forged and appear to be powdered metal or cast! They are not close to being as strong as stock ford items.

    The little button head Allen screws were very poor quality and the size was not metric or US SAE I had to file an old Allen key to fit.


    Regards Jonathan

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    Last edited by Thunderbolt287; 07-28-2019 at 05:42 AM.

  8. #66

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    Thank you for the memory jog, Jonathan. Now that you mention it I do recall the pics you had shown me of the broken pieces. My bad!

    The breakage prone secondaries are troubling and lead us back to Michael's billet L&M offering. If you need these gears you might want to ask Michael if he would sell just the 9-Way gears individually and then buy four of them. Also in the FWIW bucket, even though I mentioned it earlier, the fastener positioning on the exhaust primaries is directly in the path of the cam position sensor so they will provide false positives to the ECU. The ECU needs the cam position sensor to implement individual cylinder injector timing. If you run a batch firing model (not recommended) the cam position sensor input is irrelevant. The easiest fix is the use of non magnetic stainless fasteners that are essentially invisible to the sensor — be sure to get high tensile strength ones.

    For those who are wondering why four gears, the individual gears have 1 degree, 2 degree, 3 degree, and 4 degree adjustments either advancing or retarding the cam. Your secondary cam sprockets have 18˚ of cam rotation between teeth (360˚/ 20 teeth) . With a range of only ±4˚ there are 10˚ of cam positioning that are unavailable to you as the builder (18˚ - 8˚). If everything is exactly correct you should be able to move an intake cam one tooth on its 20 tooth drive gear and get to where you want to be. Depending on how your cam grinder ground your cams you will either be OK or out of luck by a degree or so.

    That adjustment window with a maximum range of ±4˚ per 9-Way sprocket leaves exactly 0˚ of cam positioning unavailable to you, if everything was manufactured correctly. This is how that number works out. With 18˚ of camshaft rotation available from one tooth to the next if I were to advance or retard the cam the maximum 4˚ allowed by each 9-Way sprocket I would have moved the cam forward or backward through the 8˚ of adjustment available to me. If I needed an additional 1˚ I could move the cam one tooth and then come back (or go forward) from that position using my 9-Ways to get to the next 1˚ increment I could not reach a moment before. The key to success here is the precision the individual components were manufactured with. A whoops of 1˚ or more would leave me out in the cold. The solution would be if the 9_Ways had increments of 1˚, 2˚, 3˚, and instead of the 4˚ increment available today.

    Now, in the real world, what is potential for someone getting into trouble like this? Pretty small no matter how you look at it. Cam grinders, despite their shortcomings, are pretty good about indexing their lobe profiles to the OEM keyways soooo, unless you are doing something out of the ordinary you will most likely be OK using a single 9-Way. Using two 9-Ways, while not impossible, you would have to work pretty hard to get into that window that is unavailable to even the double 9-Way solution.

    Ome more time in closing about the Australian adjustable secondaries — they shattered in service, costing Jonathan an engine. He has already done the product testing for us. No need for anyone else to loose additional engines.


    Ed

  9. #67
    Senior Member Array 4sdvenom's Avatar
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    Just a heads up in case someone wants to dig into this a little deeper.
    Do a google search for “Cloyes 9-3175A” leave out the parenthesis. There should be an add come up for Amazon.com fairly close to the top. Clicking on it takes you to Amazon and they are showing 1 new Cloyes 9-3175A Hex-a-just timing set for sale for $489.00. The pictured item is correct and is the pic I have attached from a screenshot from the Amazon listing. No where did I see it say this item is unavailable or no longer available. If someone wants to check in a bit more they may stumble on a good find. I would do it myself but my search already found me a complete adjustable kit for a 4v modular Cobra Jet with extra billet 9 way secondary gears (4 total) as well as 2 primary adjustable gears 2 fixed billet secondary gears and 2 billet 1 piece double crank drive gears and 4 secondary chains. Yes I know it’s for a 5.4 but in my discussion with Ed I just have to buy the appropriate 4.6 2003 Cobra fine finish primary chains. All for $495

    Hopefully the Amazon find turns out good for someone looking for an original Cloyes 4v hex-a-just timing set.

    Ken

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  10. #68

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    Thanks for the efforts, Ken. That will certainly make someone's day brighter.


    Ed

  11. #69
    Junior Member Array saltfever's Avatar
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    That Amazon page shows shipping in 1 to 3 months! Its doubtful you can reach anybody that actually knows what is going on. It is probably a mistake although I'll try to check further. Checking Summit, Walmart, Cloyes, and Jet (all results from that search) show it is out of stock or not available.



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    Last edited by saltfever; 07-19-2019 at 03:36 AM.

  12. #70
    Senior Member Array 4sdvenom's Avatar
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    Yes I meant to mention the shipping time frame seemed quite extreme. My honest guess is it’s a 3rd party vendor who has not updated the fact that they can no longer acquire these from Cloyes to sell as a drop shipped item. The only thing that stood out to me is it only lists 1 available. So that gave a slight bit of hope that it was a remaining stock item that someone had sitting on a shelf somewhere. That is exactly how I found the set I purchased that I mentioned above except mine I found on EBay.

    You are right though. It doesn’t list a vendor that I could see so there is no way to actually contact someone in order to check in further. One would have to contact Amazon for further info. I believe there was an item ID number on the listing or possibly a vendor ID number that could be used for reference. I would have to look at the page again to know for sure.

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