NEW PnP EFI Release for Terminators and SN95 Vehicles - Page 3

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  1. #31

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    Thanks Ken and Ed, I haven't been able to find any info on where to mount the knock sensors on an mod iron block, and I remember during the build giving it a pretty good go over externally. Ill keep looking.
    The $1349.00 intro price is not bad and I swear I saw a $15xx.00 price marked down either in an email or on their site but cant find it now.
    I was using the MS knock system since it was an 3rd party add on and the circuit had to be tuned to the hear the knock at a certain frequency, which reminds me make sure you get the exact knock sensor for your bore because it is acoustically tuned. So if you bore a motor get a sensor for that bore. A 4.6 and a 5.4 or 5.8 would knock at a different frequency. Im not sure how the current MS system detects knocks vs noise or how to tune that.

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  3. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by MustangMikeMia View Post
    Thanks Ken and Ed, I haven't been able to find any info on where to mount the knock sensors on an mod iron block, and I remember during the build giving it a pretty good go over externally. Ill keep looking.
    The $1349.00 intro price is not bad and I swear I saw a $15xx.00 price marked down either in an email or on their site but cant find it now.
    I was using the MS knock system since it was an 3rd party add on and the circuit had to be tuned to the hear the knock at a certain frequency, which reminds me make sure you get the exact knock sensor for your bore because it is acoustically tuned. So if you bore a motor get a sensor for that bore. A 4.6 and a 5.4 or 5.8 would knock at a different frequency. Im not sure how the current MS system detects knocks vs noise or how to tune that.

    I have the Iron Cobra block and there is a threaded boss just behind the drivers side motor mount, the sensor can be mounted there w/o issues. I have the J&S and this is the recommended position.

    ks

  4. #33

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    Great Keavin Thx, ill check when I get home. With the water/meth and 14#'s of boost I think im safe but really would like to get the knock control working since I have it all already anyhow.

    This is the project: Stockish Terminator in a 2300# 65 Daytona Cobra Kit car, MMR TKO 600 (rated @ 900), MegaSquirt 3x, Water/Meth, Launch Control, etc.
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    Last edited by MustangMikeMia; 08-14-2019 at 09:38 AM. Reason: image not showing up

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  6. #34
    Senior Member Array dsg2003mach1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MustangMikeMia View Post
    With the water/meth and 14#'s of boost I think im safe
    Water/meth etc... might not matter in a failure event - pump, injector, meth system itself or just a really bad tank of fuel.

  7. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by MustangMikeMia View Post
    If anyone gets the Knock detection working, please let me know. Maybe update the thread with a screenshot of the settings.
    I'm using a Terminator motor that didn't come with knock sensors from the factory. My understanding was the supercharger was too noisy to use them when they developed that motor, but the other 4 valve motors of that year and earlier have them such as the Mach1 and N/A cobras so it shouldn't be a valve train noise issue.
    I'm sure the later GT500's used knock sensors so i don't know how the SC could preclude their use unless it had to do with the harmonics of the iron terminator block vs the aluminum?
    I do have the Bosch sensors and the knock kit installed in my MS3x and would like to play with it, but I would have to find a place to mount them since the iron block has no provision for them in the valley. Not sure if it has bosses that can be tapped or not, as I never had the engine apart. If anyone knows or has retrofit a iron block w these please tell me how.
    Quote Originally Posted by 4sdvenom View Post
    I know there is info out there on where to install the knock sensors on a Terminator engine. The J&S vampire knock control has several options in their instructions for locations at the sides of the block. I believe that info is on their site. I saved it somewhere but will have to look a bit for it.

    Ken


    A couple of questions I meant to respond to earlier but got interrupted and forgot.

    Mike, you are correct the Ford engineers did not have the sensing logic worked out for the supercharged version of the engine to allow the use of their knock detection without the detection of false positives, so they opted to leave the system off the car and go more conservative on the tune. The J&S knock detection / suppression system which I'll talk more about in a bit fixed that problem for the Terminator engines.

    There are two broad categories of knock sensor. One is tuned to a specific frequency and continuously looks for the sonic knock signature at that frequency. Many GM sensors are like this. The big MegaSquirt Manual speaks to this in the knock detection section and provides pics of both sensors. Those sensors were manufactured to detect the knock ar a specific frequency for a specific block and bore size. They are sort of like a narrow band O2 sensor. Very acciurate but within a narrow band, if you get outside that band the sensor cannot not read accurately.

    The other type of sensor is the wideband knock sensor which is similar to its wideband O2 sensor sibling. The wideband style knock sensor can read knock across a much wider frequency range and can be tuned to most any engine bore size and block material. The MS3Pro works with both style sensors. If you are using a GM engine it is simply a matter of buying the corresponding GM sensor for that engine. If you use other than a GM engine then you want the Bosch sensor. Again the big MS3Pro manual goes into more detail with pics of both sensors.

    Ford uses the Bosch style wideband knock sensor on the 03/04 Mach I and other engines in their line up. This sensor is capable of reading knock across a wide range of frequencies. This is the same sensor that J&S uses in their knock detection and suppression systems. There is a calibration technique that J&S uses for the sensor and a number of users have documented on this site, Basically you turn up the sensitivity until it thinks every sound is knock and then back it down until you find the threshold it can't 'hear' knock. Once you find that threshold you come up a notch to allow the system to catch the incipient signs of knock — so the earliest appearance of knock is trapped and addressed.

    Ken, Mike the next three paragraphs speak to sensor placement considerations. With the OEM Eaton Blower manifold the original OEM sensor bosses had to be eliminated to clear the lower portion of the manifold. That means new suitable locations would need to be found. To avoid water jacket leakage I would try to avoid drilling and tapping the block and instead would search for unused bolt bosses on the block

    The technique with the MS3Pro would be similar for the Bosch sensors except you would do it with a laptop instead of a screwdriver. The most important difference however is not the laptop / screwdriver distinction, it is the knocking cylinder determination. Virtually al knock detection systems use two sensors to isolate the knocking cylinder. The J&S does not. Because of the way the J&S is architected it monitors all ignition events for all cylinders in real time, BTW so does the MS3Pro so they have the capability of using the same cylinder determination logic - but currently do not.

    When the J&S unit 'hears' a sonic knock signature on its single knock sensor it looks to see who was the last cylinder to fire. Presto, viola we have identified the bad boy! Now, before the next ignition event the J&S will pull timing from just that one cylinder and sneak part way back on each subsequent ignition event until it hears knock again. Once it hears the knock signature again, it will pull back to the last known knock free advance for that one hole — very simple but very sophisticated and it all happens in real time across the entire engine rpm operating range.

    You can duplicate most everything the J&S does except cylinder determination. MS3Pro uses multiple sensors to do that job whereas J&S uses a single sensor. If you already have a J&S it is extraordinary and it would be my first choice for knock detection. If you don't, the MS3Pro can closely approximate the J&S performance however I do believe the J&S unit has had a leg up on everybody in the industry in terms of identifying the knocking cylinder since it first appeared on the turbo Buick's 30+ years or so ago.


    Ed
    Last edited by eschaider; 08-16-2019 at 11:02 AM. Reason: Spelling & Grammar

  8. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by KEVINS View Post
    I have the Iron Cobra block and there is a threaded boss just behind the drivers side motor mount, the sensor can be mounted there w/o issues. I have the J&S and this is the recommended position.

    ks
    Exactly correct Kevin.


    Ed

  9. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by MustangMikeMia View Post
    Great Keavin Thx, ill check when I get home. With the water/meth and 14#'s of boost I think im safe but really would like to get the knock control working since I have it all already anyhow.

    This is the project: Stockish Terminator in a 2300# 65 Daytona Cobra Kit car, MMR TKO 600 (rated @ 900), MegaSquirt 3x, Water/Meth, Launch Control, etc.
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    That is a way cool car, Mike. That was the car that broke Ferrari's hold on the World Manufacturers Cup over 50 years ago! The original Cobra roadsters were unstoppable on the shorter tracks. The handling and the power to weight ratio made them the equivalent of an unbeatable street brawler. When they got to the big fast tracks however, the aero on the roadsters resembled that of a brick and even with the additional power they had, the high speed drag put them at a disadvantage with the Ferrari's.

    The car you have, frequently referred to as the Daytona Coupe changed all that. In its first outing at Daytona Speed week it simply ran away from the Ferrari's but, short story, succumbed to a mechanical failure costing Shelby the race. That got repaired for Sebring and the Daytona's defeated all comers in a stunning finish.

    I believe it was Bob Bondurant (but I don't clearly recall anymore) who was playing with a Ferrari at, I believe Spa in Belgium. Bondurant said he was playing a cat and mouse game with the Ferrari at around 180 mph, which was essentially Ferrari's top speed. (the Cobra roadsters were typically 10 to 15 mph behind the Ferrari's) Once he had satisfied himself with his cat and mouse equivalent game, in typical Bondurant fashion he said he just stepped on the gas and literally pulled away from the Ferrari at well over 180 mph. I am not certain anyone knows how fast Bondurant actually was going but it takes a 15 mph or so difference to make a visible difference in position on a car at 180 mph, so go figure.

    Bondurant did that with the little 380HP 289 competition engine. The Terminator engine in your Coupe is much more potent than that World Champion 380 hp 289. Be careful with the car, it is likely easily capable of exceeding 200 mph and you need everything, especially tires, in tip top shape if you intend to do those sorts of things.

    Waaay cool car!


    Ed


    p.s. The roadsters and I believe also the Coupes had a special but troubling attribute called Trailing Torque Oversteer or TTO for short. Sometimes this has been referred to as Trailing Throttle Oversteer. Naming conventions not withstanding what TTO does is put the car into a severe oversteer situation in a turn if you lift on the throttle. Should you find yourself at a higher speed than you feel comfortable with in a turn do not just back out of the throttle. If you do the car goes into severe oversteer and likely spins out on you. The correct save in this situation is to put in the clutch to disengage the engine.

    The engine braking and weight transfer to the front tires from the rears unloads the rear suspension, in a light car, allowing the sudden appearance of oversteer. By pushing in the clutch you remove the engine braking from the rear tires and with a judicious but light use of the brakes you can negotiate the turn without mishap. A good place to go after the car is done is a large empty parking lot so you can familiarize yourself with the cars different performance characteristics and thresholds — other than top speed.
    Last edited by eschaider; 08-14-2019 at 11:37 AM. Reason: Spelling & Grammar

  10. #38

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    Thanks Ed! Yes I love tha panache and history behind these cars and there were only 6 originals built, that's what swayed my decision to stop my fox body build and go this route.
    I have experienced TTO before, and I will definitely be careful about the tail coming around. Driving light cars with that much hp to weight ratio is always squirrely.
    It's going to be a driver with AC and plans are to drive it to Sebring, Daytona and the local tracks and drag strips around here in S FL.
    When I have the MS tune dialed in Ill share that here so we can compare Fuel and timing tables.
    Mike

  11. #39

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    Thanks Mike. Awesome toy you have there!


    Ed

  12. #40

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    Ed, How does this new PnP ECU work with regards to those of us that reside in states where vehicle inspections are required? Specifically, in North Carolina, the Inspection station will plug into the OBD2 port to confirm that all systems or monitors are in a "ready" state. The vehicle will fail inspection if more than (I think) 1 system is not in the ready state.

  13. #41
    Senior Member Array cobraracer46's Avatar
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    I spoke with the folks a PnP EFI and they said that this a race PCM so it’s not going to have the ability to control evaporative , EGR, Etc.

    I don’t see how a Mustang equipped with this race PCM would be able to pass an OBD II functional test.

  14. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by cobraracer46 View Post
    I spoke with the folks a PnP EFI and they said that this a race PCM so it’s not going to have the ability to control evaporative , EGR, Etc.

    I don’t see how a Mustang equipped with this race PCM would be able to pass an OBD II functional test.
    It can not, Jan. The MS3Pro PnP was never intended to pass any of the emissions testing to validate use on public highways. DIYAUTOTUNE on their product page states;

    "E.P.A. Federal Regulations, California (CARB), other states & governing authorities prohibit sale or use of some aftermarket parts, including those that tamper with, modify or defeat emissions systems in any 1966 & newer vehicles. Products may contain components manufactured with trace elements and chemicals known to cause cancer and birth defects or other reproductive harm in the state of California [Proposition 65] https://oehha.ca.gov/proposition-65

    Closed course racing is an inherently dangerous sport with significant risk of personal injury or even death. Racers and or spectators accept the risk inherent therein.

    Hoffman Innovations prohibits the use of its products on emission controlled vehicles. All parts are sold for OFF-ROAD, RACE ONLY, GROUND-VEHICLE USE PURPOSES ONLY.
    "

    Given the clear and strong statement by the manufacturer why would you suggest the contrary were the case?
    Please at least attempt to be factual. Do not misrepresent other people and / or manufacturers statements or positions. To behave in such an irresponsible fashion adds no value to the discussion, potentially misdirects readers and clutters the thread.

    Please do not repeat this type of misbehavior, it benefits no one and will damage you.


    Ed

  15. #43
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    I will definitely be getting one. It just does not seem smart to have so much money on the line in the motor to leave it up to the whims of a 20 year old electronics/computer. It's amazing OEM computers keep working this long with as little problems as they do. I was going to go with the Holley EFI but Keeping the OEM Dash is the main selling point for me since this is a street car. Right now I am finishing up my latest additions: KB 3.2 Mammoth, ID1300s, Fox Lake Fully Ported/Built Heads, J2Fab Intercooler, Tig Vision 7 Gal tank. Should have it back on the street 4 - 6 weeks.
    Last edited by lucheski; Yesterday at 09:29 AM.

  16. #44

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    I couldn't agree with you more, Hendri. There are many aftermarket EFI systems available some of which are better featured than others. This is the only one that I am aware of that provides support for the OEM instrument cluster which is both a big deal and a proper finishing touch. After all, who wants to be driving around with a blank dash?

    The impressive range of engine fail safe features, the flex fuel capability, the knock detection and suppression capability and on, all make this a very attractive alternative especially with the PnP feature and coming in at basically $1,350 including tuning s/w. — hard to beat.


    ET

  17. #45

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    Not trying to hijack the thread but is there anyone on this board that upgrades megasquirt units? I have an ms1 from my 2.3 turbo days that I would like to upgrade... anyone?

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