+ Reply to Thread
Results 1 to 15 of 205
07-31-2019, 07:50 PM #1
NEW PnP EFI Release for Terminators and SN95 Vehicles
Easily one of the more frustrating aspects of owning a Cobra has been the tunability. As we increase power levels with larger blowers we need to add larger injectors and larger MAFs et al. Even worse Ford has engineered hard stops into the OEM ECU for things like injector size, MAF size etc.
As we come up on these stops the only way around the Ford mandated hard stops is to scale the particular parameter and all the parameters upstream and downstream that interact with it. While not impossible to do (many have done it) the manipulation effects other aspects of the Factory ECU of which an important one is the load calculation. Because load is foundational to the correct fueling across the engine operating range and it varies across the engine operating range and vehicle conditions, fiddling with it can bring unintended consequences.
Until now there has been only two alternatives;
1) Use the scaled OEM ECU and do your best, or
2) Go aftermarket, build a wiring harness, buy a bunch of OEM sensors and connectors, repackaged and repriced much higher — just because and spend $4,000 or more to finish off your aftermarket EFI system
As of today, you have a third alternative with a lot of attractive attributes — buy a true plug and play MS3PRO system from DIYAUTOTUNE and replace the factory ECU.
The P-n-P system has a number of very endearing features but perhaps the most is the Plug and Play attribute. You literally unplug your Factory ECU and plug in the new ECU directly into to your existing factory harness connector. That’s it! Connect Ford’s manifold pressure sensor tubing from the engine to the ECU, set timing and start your engine! The ECU comes with a base tune already loaded!
The DIYAUTOTUNE MS3PRO ECU was designed as a Plug and Play but fully programmable ECU. It will not only run the engine it will run rest of the car including your OEM dash and all its instruments! It uses all your OEM Ford sensors so you don’t have to do a wholesale replacement with the EFI manufacturers favorite sensors at his favorite prices. Best of all this system eliminates the need for a custom EFI wiring harness — it uses the OEM harness you already have and fits in right where the OEM CPU used to be!
This is what it looks like;
The big square gray connector on the front is a carbon copy of the same connector on your OEM computer and accepts your wiring harness connector w/o any modifications. How much does it cost? — $1,349 and that includes the tuning software for the ECU, which is available in both Windows and Mac format.
I want to talk about some of the features you get in the package. If you run a return style system no problem basically, all aftermarket systems do this. If you haven’t converted to a return style system yet the MS3Pro can run your factory returnless system but muuuuch better than the OEM Ford logic did, so you don’t have to invest in a returnless system just to use the ECU
Remember all that scaling talk for the Factory ECU? It’s history! You just plug in the actual injector characterization you received from your injector supplier, Same with the MAF. Want to run a BA 2600? Load the MAF transfer curve and you’re ready to go. BA 3000, BA5000 etc? Same story just load the MAF transfer curve. Pick the MAF you want load the transfer curve and you are ready to go!
Not bad huh? Well it gets better. In addition to coming with a base tune for the car that will get you up and running right out of the box, the ECU has a self-learning capability that will allow you to further optimize the base tune for your specific vehicle.
Another nice feature of the MS3PRO ECU is the ability to use any of three different fueling strategies Alpha-N, Speed Density or Mass Air and provide the ability to blend from one to another. The blending capability allows the use of the most effective fueling strategy for the particular environment.
Want to be able to switch between a race and street tune. The ECU supports table switching for both fuel and timing maps. Want to run E-85? The ECU has a flex fuel feature that will scale the tune between 100% gasoline and 100% ethanol depending on what it finds in the tank.
Additional MS3Pro P-n-P ECU features
- 16×16 Fuel Tables for high resolution tuning
- 16×16 Ignition Tables
- Multiple Acceleration enrichment strategies
- Closed Loop Idle Speed Control
- Air Conditioner Control
- 8 sequential fuel injector channels with individual trim tables
- 8 sequential ignition channels with individual trim tables
- Onboard peak and hold drivers that support both high and low impedance injectors – without any external ballast resistor required!
- The ability to work with or without the stock MAF sensor in either Speed Density or Mass Air mode
Advanced MS3Pro P-n-P Features that are included
- 12×12 Air Fuel Ratio Target Tables for use with wideband O2 sensor for precise tuning and table trim.
- Multiple traction control strategies (JUST add a front wheel VSS like this)
- Built-in 3-step rev limiter / launch control with flat shift and burnout rev limiter
- Time based timing / boost increase after launch
- Real time barometric correction
- Internal 4-bar MAP sensor that reads up to 44PSI of boost
- Overboost protection
- Closed loop boost control (Requires EBC solenoid kit)
- CO2 based boost control
- Set boost by RPM and throttle, ground speed, or gear
- Rally style anti lag
- Water injection control – on/off or variable
- Knock sensor input with adjustable sensitivity, crank angle windowing, and more
- Table switching input. Change fuel and spark maps on the fly for different fuels, nitrous activation, etc.
- Input for flex fuel sensor – switch between E85 and gasoline on the fly!
- Supports for many aftermarket dashes/displays such as Racepak, Race Technologies, AiM Sports, AEM, Dakota Digital, Autosports Labs, Perfect Tuning, etc.
- CAN Bus expansion connector that allows an almost unlimited interconnection of other devices for additional functionality like EGT Input, Automatic Transmission Controller, Additional Sensors …
Wouldn’t it be nice to have a few engine saving features like a way to automatically shut the engine off for oiling, fueling or engine coolant temperature out of range situations? Well if you haven’t guessed by now that’s there too and you get to pick the triggering thresholds you would like to use — Its there!
How about knock detection and control where the ECU pulls timing when it detects the knock and adds it back in until it ‘hears’ knock again and then steps back just short of it. If you run a supercharged gasoline engine without knock detection and control it is like playing Russian Roulette with more than one bullet. It's there!
How about a traction control feature that does not beat up the engine like a two step does. One that is programmable to allow a user programmable amount of wheel slip and then pull pull timing to soften the torque to limit wheel spin and then begins to roll it back in as fast as the tire can handle it. It's there! In fact it will allow you to literally leave the line black tracking the slick and stay just short of wheel spin — which is the best acceleration you can get, period!
In addition to the hardware the system comes with a tuning software package that runs on either Windows or Mac based platforms and adds new meaning to the idea of clarity in setup and tuning. The MS3PRO P-N-P package includes a built in data logging capability that does not require an additional handheld device. There is a wireless capability that will allow you to project a dashboard onto an Android device and even data log to the device if you wish to.
The tuning software is created by EFI Analytics, click here => EFI Analytics EFI Analytics also provides a data log viewer that will allow you to pick and choose the events you want to observe and set the time base so you can expand or shrink the event for best clarity and data display.
DIYAUTOTUNE will be releasing the ECUs in three separate releases;
Release #1 will be for the 99-04 Mustang GT, 99-02 Cobra DOHC (NA), 03-04 Mach 1 DOHC - Seq. Spark, Digital Dash, DOHC with Knock Sensors. The part # is MSPNPPro-EECIV-8CM and it is available right now.
Release #2 will be for the 03-04 Mustang Cobra, Digital Dash. This unit was finishing up dyno test last week as I was talking to the folks at DIYAUTOTUNE and should be available within 2 to four weeks, possibly sooner. The part # is MSPNPPro-EECIV-8DM
Release #3 will for the 96-98 Mustang GT OHV, Cobra DOHC – Wasted Spark, Non-Digital Dash, the Cobra implementation also supports OEM knock sensors. The Part # is MSPNPPro-EECIV-8AM
All in all, an extraordinarily complete package that is literally plug and play with the entire SN95 platform and it comes in at a $1,349 price point, including tuning software.
Here is a link to their page with the new ECU =>MSPRO PnP for Terminators and SN95s
Looks like Santa came early this year ...
Here are two 7 minute videos covering the physical install and the initial setup and first start. Guaranteed to WOW you!
Click here =>MS3Pro PnP Install — Part 1
Click here =>MS3Pro PnP Setup & First Start — Part 2
Last edited by eschaider; 08-24-2019 at 04:54 PM. Reason: Added How to Vid Links
08-01-2019, 05:53 AM #2
I seen this the other day. I am very excited to see this come out and looking forward to getting one!
Thanks as always for the detailed info Ed.
08-01-2019, 11:32 AM #3
A couple other important attributes I forgot to mention in post #1 are the ignition story and CPU speed (which translates into engine speed).
Basically the Ford EEC-V ECU runs out of steam in the boiler somewhere between 6500 and 7000 rpm. You can extend that somewhat by shutting down (to the extent that's possible) various emissions control logic in the ECU. You still end up with sketchy ECU performance at 7000 rpm and above.
The MS3PRO ECU uses a newer Motorola processor that runs 100% or more, faster than the EEC-V processor and the CPU architecture is a more recent design than the older EEC-V Intel chip. The upshot is the rpm ceiling on the MS3PRO is somewhere north of 10,000 rpm. The average ModMotor won't go there but 8500 is a very real number and there is a mountain of horsepower waiting for us up there.
The other thing I forgot to mention in post #1 was the support for virtually any type of ignition coil available today which means we are no longer limited by the 20 Millijoule COPs that Ford provided the engine with. In fact the MS3PRO has direct support for IGN1 coils that produce 116 millijoules of energy per spark even stronger than the Mercury Marine IGN1-A version of the coils at 108 millijoules. You can say goodbye to spark blowout above 6000 rpm.
It is stunning when you see all the horsepower that is waiting to be harvested in the upper rpm bands.
Last edited by eschaider; 08-05-2019 at 10:24 AM. Reason: Spelling & Grammar
08-01-2019, 06:34 PM #4
- Join Date
- Aug 2009
Damn, that is sweet, wish I could get this but I very highly doubt you can pass inspection in a state that plugs into the OBD2 with this. Hmmmmmm might be swapping ECUs when I want to run on the street, wouldn't be that hard I suppose.
Last edited by SVGT02; 08-16-2019 at 08:05 PM.
08-01-2019, 08:22 PM #5
Well Kevin, it is plug compatible right? Save your OEM ECU, unplug the MS3Pro when you are ready to go back to the street, Plug in the OEM ECU and don't worry be happy. Don't forge to tell the OEM CPU what size injectors you are running. Couldn't be easier.
Last edited by eschaider; 08-16-2019 at 07:02 PM. Reason: Spelling & Grammar
08-01-2019, 09:57 PM #6
- Join Date
- Aug 2009
In my situation it would be a trade off seeing how many of the new features I could use and not make it a difficult swap back and forth. Not really looking to have to run external coils and wires and then have to switch back every time I want to street it. It does seem to have many positives vs all the piggy back type add on over the years.
EDIT: Just reading the break down, will this support knock sensing for 03-04 Cobras? Seems it might be skipped in that release. Is this due to noise or the lack of factory sensors, or am I mistaken? I have a J&S I've been looking to deploy for safety. Is this a possible replacement?
Not to hijack but isn't there rumors of a Holley system coming out later this year as well?
Last edited by SVGT02; 08-16-2019 at 08:06 PM.
08-01-2019, 11:57 PM #7
There is a very good chance you can do the tune yourself, Kevin. Once you strip away all the scaling BS that the Ford ECU demands and then the tables few people know of, or what they do and while you're at it the ones people do know of but misinterpret the purpose of, the tuning gets pretty straight forward. Of course the ECU comes with a preinstalled base tune that will get you up and running and a self learning feature that will get you far enough into the ball park you can finesse the last few steps with out access to any rocket science books.
You are spot on with respect to the faster processor and improved table resolution (although the stock ECU does provide pretty good resolution). If you are intending to run ethanol then the flex fuel capability the system has will be a big blessing for you. The flex fuel capability will allow the ECU to modify the tune for the ethanol content that the flex fuel sensor detects in the fuel. This is a big deal if you fuel at the pump where DOE allows almost a 40% swing in ethanol content to still be labelled and sold as E-85.
To take advantage of the Flex Fuel capability You will need a flex fuel sensor like this one to tell the ECU about the ethanol content, click here => AC Delco Flex Fuel Sensor
The tuning software and the ECU offer more options than most people will choose to use. The important ones like engine saving shut offs for fueling whoopses, oiling whoopses, engine coolant temp over temp whoopses, engine overspeed, knock detection and correction etc are absolute engine life savers and wallet savers. The traction control that rolls timing seamlessly in and out to maintain traction, based on how much tire slippage you are willing to tolerate, is a Godsend with cars that have our kind of power on the street. You can literally program how much wheel spin (tire slip) you are willing to tolerate before beginning to roll back the timing. If you choose to keep your existing coils the ECU runs them exactly as is through the OEM harness.
Holley has a good system but I prefer this system because it uses your stock wiring harness, all your stock sensors, provides most of its functionality through that OEM harness. Exceptions would be the flex fuel gizmo and stuff like EGT sensors that would actually connect to the ECU through the MS3Pro CAN bus not the OEM harness. Remember all the fancy whizzy stuff is done in software inside the MS3Pro box, not with external gizmos, which means when you want to go OEM again, it is literally unplugging one ECU and plugging in the other ECU.
Holley has repeatedly hinted that they intended to come out with some level of a P-n-P sysstem at some point in time. The real question is when, just how plug and play is it, does it run the rest of the car's electronics (dash and what not?) and how much does it cost by the time you are done? You have a fairly robust set of answers to all of those questions right now for the MS3Pro and none for the Holley system, as yet. An interesting additional consideration might be, how much does a Holley system cost to install today and how much do you really think they will reduce that for a P-n-P version?
Last edited by eschaider; 08-16-2019 at 09:30 PM. Reason: Spelling & Grammar
08-02-2019, 04:17 PM #8
Or anyone else reading this with experience!
What are your thoughts on running this as speed density with a map sensor and no MAF meter?
I’ve always liked the thought of being able to ditch the MAF with an aftermarket ecu but also know some still like to retain it. My understanding is you can do either with this computer. Just curious if you have a preference and what benefits there are with either configuration.
08-02-2019, 06:43 PM #9
This is great! I bought a QuarterHorse and BinaryEditor a couple years ago so I'm not going to change ECU, but I would totally buy that if I had to do it again today.
Does it support real-time tuning like the QuarterHorse?
08-02-2019, 11:37 PM #10
The deal with MAF and Speed Density systems is one of adaptability and easy implementation. As you might suspect each attribute is associated with a different system model. The adaptability comes with the MAF based system and the ease of implementation comes with the speed density based systemm. The challenge with the speed density beased fueling model is if you do something to change the volumetric efficiency of the engine you need to retune to reflect the Ve change in th engine. Things that can cause a Ve change in the engine include cam phasing, air cleaner changes. CAI system, a change to a different CAI system, cam change, blower change, boost change, barometric change, geographical change and more.
The reason that Detroit uses MAFs on production vehicles is they have to meet stringent emissions standards worldwide, no matter the altitude, the temperature, the barometric pressure, the air density etc. The only system that can handle this in real time is the MAF based systems. BTW the reason F1 teams use MAF's on F! engines is exactly the same as the Motown motivations. They need absolute control over the fueling at all times during the race not just for engine performance but because they are fuel volume limited for any given race. The MAF based systems easily provide the fueling control they need to be competitive and finish the race without running out of fuel.
A lot of people claim the MAF based systems throttle the engine because of the sensor tonsil that protrudes into the flow path of the air. This is true of many of the over the counter MAFs available today. If you use a Pro-M MAF the MAF throat looks like this and the performance is stunningly different;
This MAF is a 117mm ID which is big enough for a 105 Howitzer round to go through without touching. They also offer a smaller 92mm little brother that is good for up to 1500 HP and an 88mm sibling for lower power levels. I personally use the Pro-M 92. You can specify a mass flow figure for the MAF and they will build to your spec or you can use a commercially available MAF xfer function and they will build to that.
Why spend the money to mimic the commercially available MAF? Signal quality. There are no commercially available MAFs that can duplicate the cleanliness of the PRO-M MAF signal. Take a look at the 4 minute YouTube video below and you will get a better understanding of what I am talking about;
click here => https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAYAT-zTTRI&t=2s
When your MAF signal is erratic your ECU chases the erratic signal trying to match a fuel delivery model to the ever changing air mass — a waste of time and CPU cycles. Sometimes you can mute the signal to dampen the erratic peaking but then you get a slow to respond MAF. The Pro-M MAF fixes all that and charge reversion attributable to close LSA cams.
My preference, if you haven't already guessed, is a MAF based system. That doesn't mean that a Speed Density system will not work or will not give you good service. It will. The MAF based system, if you use a quality MAF, will work even better especially as you change cams, blowers, blower overdrives etc you won't have to retune because the MAF will be measuring and reporting the mass air flow to the ECU, which the ECU uses to calculate the engine's fuel requirement and injector pulse widths.
Last edited by eschaider; 08-04-2019 at 06:01 PM. Reason: Spelling & Grammar
08-03-2019, 10:15 PM #11
That really summed it up quite well for me Ed. I definitely want the simplicity and finer tuning and control that will come with running a MAF versus speed density. When my motor is done and a new bigger blower goes on I’ll definitely be looking to the Pro-M to handle that duty.
08-05-2019, 11:48 AM #12
Apologies I overlooked this question.
It does support knock sensors and knock sensing although the Cobra wiring harness does not provide for that. If you get a Mach ! harness it does but I am not sure the Mach I harness has provisions for IAT2 sensing. I;ll have to go to my Helms wiring manual later today.
If you go to the Mach I harness you can use the MS3Pro PnP version for the Mach I and get the ECU and the knock detection / correction in one fell swoop. Worst case is you have one more wire to run to the IAT2 sensor. Both ECU's have identical support for supercharging so either can work on our engines.
08-05-2019, 06:07 PM #13
Here is a hot off the presses doc that gives some interesting insights into the MS3Pro PnP product. It is the MegaSquirt PNP Pro Manual. Don't let the name Manual put you off. This document is only 24 pages long with large print and big, clear pictures. It provides good insights into the product along with coaching and tips on how to setup and tune with the product. Pretty good stuff and excellent reading.
08-06-2019, 08:21 AM #14
I have the MS Pro on my car tho it's not the P-n-P version.
Flex Fuel: Let me start off by saying I know NOTHING about how to tune it. I talked to Chad at The Shop that would be tuning it and we discussed my plans for the car and when we were done I bought what my tuner told me to get then I installed it and let him do the tuning. Mine is a high HP street car and for that reason I wanted mine set up with flex fuel and it has saved some headaches due to running low on E85. With only a few places around town to get E85 it's very easy now to simply put a few gallons of 91oct in the tank to get me by. IMO, it's a no-brainer to have this function on a car especially a street car. As Ed mentioned, install the GM sensor in the fuel line and let the computer take care of the rest. No need to flip switches or anything. The computer monitors the fuel/alcohol content and automatically adjusts the tune based on what is in the tank and the blending option chosen. I run 3 fuel pumps which are controlled by the MS Pro and two come on at 7psi of boost.
Knock Sensing: I also have the J&S Vampire system monitoring for knock. I know the MS Pro has this capability but b/c I already had it installed on my car so I left it on. It's so friggen sophisticated that I'm not sure that the MS Pro can match it, ie Individual Cylinder Control, Hard or Soft knock retard, etc. Maybe it can, I dunno I never looked into it but I'm glad I have the J&S Vampire on.
Boost control is done by my Eboost2 b/c it was already installed. I thought about switching it to the MS Pro but I would have to set up switches in the car in order to change boost on the fly otherwise it can only be adjusted via the laptop. The Eboost is already setup this way so for this reason I prefer the Eboost over the MS Pro for boost adjustment/control.
My tuner wanted to get rid of the MAF so my car is MAF'less and no issues with drivability.
For now my car is done and I try to drive/show it instead of work on it but I would love to hook up traction control.
Now for some reality:
As I mentioned I cannot tune a guitar let alone an engine management computer and the MS Pro is no exception. I do not have the PnP version so it didn't come with any tunes. It does have a "self learn" in it but you still have to know what a timing table is and what info to put in the table and many other areas that require data. You still have to know what a fueling table is and what numbers you have to put into it. There is a LOT of info that you have to know in order to program the computer just to get it started. I was able to find the info to get it started then let the self learning do its thing. After a month or so of screwing with it, all I was able to do was get it to tune its self good enough so I could drive it around the block and to the tuner. In reality this was all I needed to do since the tuner would tune it for me but I really wanted to learn how to do a lot of it myself. By screwing around with it I was able to learn what is in the MS Pro and how adjustments are made so this was helpful to me but everyone said that it was easy to tune. WRONG! WRONG! WRONG!. It may be easy for those that have tuned a car before or know what info goes into the tables but if you are like me then don't kid yourself. There are forums for the MS Pro but they are a no help at all for beginners. Finding info that is specific enough to my situation was non-existent. This system is installed on boats, motorcycles, BMW's, etc so finding anything related to a 2V Mustang was impossible so the forums offered no help for me. The reality is if you feel that you cannot tune a car then you probably can't tune the MS Pro. If you feel that you have a grasp of tuning a car then you probably can.
Last edited by KEVINS; 08-06-2019 at 09:05 AM.
08-06-2019, 10:57 AM #15
Thank you for sharing your first hand experience, Kevin. It is always helpful to be able to hear from someone who has been there and done that. Your points about tuning, especially if you have not done it previously, are well made and something any potential adopters should consider carefully. While your implementation hill climb was steeper than it might be for an adopter of the PnP version it is none the less true that tuning, especially if you have not done it previously, can easily be a bridge too far right out of the gate. Take the time to have it done correctly by a shop that you trust that is physically close to you.
On the other hand if you are one of the lucky guys that seem to be able to pick up this kind of a discipline fairly easily — go for it! For this type of user there can be a special satisfaction you get from continually tweaking the tune to further optimize it for your car and your driving style. The tools are immediately. available and relatively easy to use. The tuning skills are the part you need to develop. Best part is if you want to explore the process it doesn't cost you a licensing fee for tuning software because it comes with the ECU. If you prefer to buy a tune and focus your energies elsewhere the ECU comes with all the software your tuner will require.
I am 100% in lock step with you on the flex fuel capability. It is simply a no brainer. At least for the time being the E85 stations are far less common than the normal gas stations. This flex fuel capability means you'll be able to drive anywhere you want and not have to worry about fuel availability — a very nice thing not to have to worry about that makes driving fun again.
While the PnP version comes with a base tune in speed density format if you want to use a MAF based tune you will need to get a MAF xfer curve for your MAF or get yours flowed. SCT published the MAF xfer curves for their BA 2400/2600/2800/3000/5000 MAFS. I believe I have all of them. Ill dig them out later and publish them in this thread for anyone who might be looking for them and having difficulty finding them.
The Speed density approach to fueling, while not as comprehensive as the MAF based models, is none the less the approach used on virtually all aftermarket systems and works well. For those that want the works anywhere with any mod capability the MAF based approach will add some cost to your implementation because you need to get either a new MAF (of the airflow capacity you are looking for) with a MAF xfer function or you need to get your MAF flowed.
If emissions testing is a issue for you you might want to leave your OEM MAF in place. It will do no harm and if you need emissions testing it can be as simple as unplugging the PnP ECU and plugging in your OEM ECU. Something to consider ...
p.s. Nice power numbers BTW