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NEW PnP EFI Release for Terminators and SN95 Vehicles

48K views 217 replies 20 participants last post by  eschaider 
#1 ·
Easily one of the more frustrating aspects of owning a Cobra has been the tunability. As we increase power levels with larger blowers, we need to add larger injectors and larger MAFs et al. Even worse, Ford has engineered hard stops into the OEM ECU for things like injector size, MAF size etc.

As we come up on these stops, the only way around the Ford-mandated hard stops is to scale the particular parameter and all the parameters upstream and downstream that interact with it. While not impossible to do (many have done it), the manipulation affects other aspects of the Factory ECU, of which an important one is the load calculation. Because load is foundational to the correct fueling across the engine operating range, and it varies across the engine operating range and vehicle conditions, fiddling with it can bring unintended consequences.

Until now, there has been only two alternatives;

1) Use the scaled OEM ECU and do your best, or

2) Go aftermarket, build a wiring harness, buy a bunch of OEM sensors and connectors, repackaged, and repriced much higher - just because and spend $4,000 or more to finish off your aftermarket EFI system

As of today, you have a third alternative with a lot of attractive attributes - buy a true plug-and-play MS3PRO system from DIYAUTOTUNE and replace the factory ECU.

The Plug and Play MS3Pro system has a number of very endearing features but perhaps the most endearing is the Plug and Play attribute. You literally unplug your Factory ECU and plug in the new ECU directly into to your existing factory harness connector. That's it! Connect Ford's manifold pressure sensor tubing from the engine to the ECU, set timing and start your engine! The ECU comes with a base tune already loaded!

The DIYAUTOTUNE MS3PRO ECU was designed as a Plug and Play but fully programmable ECU. It will not only run the engine it will run the rest of the car, including your OEM dash and all its instruments! It uses all your OEM Ford sensors, so you don't have to do a wholesale replacement with the EFI manufacturer's favorite sensors at his favorite prices. Best of all, this system eliminates the need for a custom EFI wiring harness - it uses the OEM harness you already have and fits in right where the OEM CPU used to be!

This is what it looks like;
Electronic device Font Logo Brand Rectangle

The big square gray connector on the front is a carbon copy of the same connector on your OEM computer and accepts your wiring harness connector w/o any modifications. How much does it cost? - $1,349, and that includes the tuning software for the ECU, which is available in both Windows and Mac formats.

I want to talk about some of the features you get in the package. If you run a return-style system, no problem; basically, all aftermarket systems do this. If you haven't converted to a return-style system yet, the MS3Pro can run your factory returnless system, but muuuuch better than the OEM Ford logic did, so you don't have to invest in a return-style system just to use the ECU
.
Remember all that scaling talk for the Factory ECU? It's history! You just plug in the actual injector characterization you received from your injector supplier, Same with the MAF. Want to run a BA 2600? Load the MAF transfer curve, and you're ready to go. BA 3000, BA5000, etc? The same story just load the corresponding MAF transfer curve. Pick the MAF you want, load the transfer curve, and you are ready to go!

Not bad, huh? Well, it gets better. In addition to coming with a base tune for the car that will get you up and running right out of the box, the ECU has a self-learning capability that will allow you to further optimize the base tune for your specific vehicle.

Another nice feature of the MS3PRO ECU is the ability to use any of three different fueling strategies, Alpha-N, Speed Density, or Mass Air, and provide the ability to blend from one to another. The blending capability allows the use of the most effective fueling strategy for the particular environment.

Want to be able to switch between a race and a street tune. The ECU supports table switching for both fuel and timing maps. Want to run E-85? The ECU has a flex-fuel feature that will scale the tune between 100% gasoline and 100% ethanol, depending on what it finds in the tank.

Additional MS3Pro P-n-P ECU features

  • 16×16 Fuel Tables for high-resolution tuning
  • 16×16 Ignition Tables
  • Multiple Acceleration enrichment strategies
  • Closed Loop Idle Speed Control
  • Air Conditioner Control
  • 8 sequential fuel injector channels with individual trim tables
  • 8 sequential ignition channels with individual trim tables
  • Onboard peak and hold drivers that support both high and low-impedance injectors - without any external ballast resistor required!
  • The ability to work with or without the stock MAF sensor in either Speed Density or Mass Air mode

Advanced MS3Pro P-n-P Features that are included

  • 12×12 Air Fuel Ratio Target Tables for use with wideband O2 sensor for precise tuning and table trim.
  • Multiple traction control strategies (JUST add a front wheel VSS like this)
  • Built-in 3-step rev limiter/launch control with flat shift and burnout rev limiter
  • Time-based timing / boost increase after the launch
  • Real-time barometric correction
  • Internal 4-bar MAP sensor that reads up to 44PSI of boost
  • Overboost protection
  • Closed loop boost control (Requires EBC solenoid kit)
  • CO2-based boost control
  • Set boost by RPM and throttle, ground speed, or gear
  • Rally style anti lag
  • Water injection control - on/off or variable
  • Knock sensor input with adjustable sensitivity, crank angle windowing, and more
  • Table switching input. Change fuel and spark maps on the fly for different fuels, nitrous activation, etc.
  • Input for flex fuel sensor - switch between E85 and gasoline on the fly!
  • Supports for many aftermarket dashes/displays including Racepak, Race Technologies, AiM Sports, AEM, Dakota Digital, Autosports Labs, Perfect Tuning, etc.
  • CAN Bus expansion connector that allows an almost unlimited interconnection of other devices for additional functionality like EGT Input, Automatic Transmission Controller, Additional Sensors …

Wouldn't it be nice to have a few engine-saving features, like a way to automatically shut the engine off for oiling, fueling or engine coolant temperature out-of-range situations? Well, if you haven't guessed by now, that's there too, and you get to pick the triggering thresholds you would like to use - it's there!

How about knock detection and control where the ECU pulls timing when it detects the knock and adds it back in until it 'hears' knock again and then steps back just short of it. If you run a supercharged gasoline engine without knock detection and control, it is like playing Russian Roulette with more than one bullet!

How about a traction control feature that does not beat up the engine like a two-step does? One that is programmable to allow a user-programmable amount of wheel slip and then incrementally pull timing to soften the torque to limit wheel spin. Once the tire is hooked up again, it begins to roll the timing back in as fast as the tire can handle it. It's there! In fact, it will allow you to literally leave the line black tracking the slick and stay just short of wheel spin - which is the best possible acceleration you can get, period!

In addition to the hardware, the system comes with a tuning software package that runs on either Windows or Mac-based platforms and adds new meaning to the idea of clarity in setup and tuning. The MS3PRO P-N-P package includes a built-in data logging capability that does not require an additional handheld device. There is a wireless capability that will allow you to project a dashboard onto an Android device and even data log to the device if you wish to.

The tuning software is created by EFI Analytics, click here => EFI Analytics EFI Analytics also provides a data log viewer that will allow you to pick and choose the events you want to observe and set the time base so you can expand or shrink the event for best clarity and data display.

DIYAUTOTUNE will be releasing the ECUs in three separate releases;

Release #1 will be for the 99-04 Mustang GT, 99-02 Cobra DOHC (NA), 03-04 Mach 1 DOHC - Seq. Spark, Digital Dash, DOHC with Knock Sensors. The part # is MSPNPPro-EECIV-8CM, and it is available right now.

Release #2 will be for the 03-04 Mustang Cobra, Digital Dash. This unit was finishing up the dyno test last week as I was talking to the folks at DIYAUTOTUNE, and should be available within 2 to four weeks, possibly sooner. The part # is MSPNPPro-EECIV-8DM

Release #3 will be for the 96-98 Mustang GT OHV, Cobra DOHC - Wasted Spark, and Non-Digital Dash, the Cobra implementation also supports OEM knock sensors. The Part # is MSPNPPro-EECIV-8AM

All in all, an extraordinarily complete package that is literally plug-and-play with the entire SN95 platform, and it comes in at a $1,349 price point, including tuning software.

Here is a link to their page with the new ECU =>MSPRO PnP for Terminators and SN95s

Looks like Santa came early this year ...

Ed

Update


Here are two 7-minute videos covering the physical installation and the initial setup, and first start. Guaranteed to WOW you!

Click here =>MS3Pro PnP Install - Part 1

Click here =>MS3Pro PnP Setup & First Start - Part 2
 
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#3 · (Edited)
A couple other important attributes I forgot to mention in post #1 are the ignition story and CPU speed (which translates into engine speed).

Basically the Ford EEC-V ECU runs out of steam in the boiler somewhere between 6500 and 7000 rpm. You can extend that somewhat by shutting down (to the extent that's possible) various emissions control logic in the ECU. You still end up with sketchy ECU performance at 7000 rpm and above.

The MS3PRO ECU uses a newer Motorola processor that runs 100% or more, faster than the EEC-V processor and the CPU architecture is a more recent design than the older EEC-V Intel chip. The upshot is the rpm ceiling on the MS3PRO is somewhere north of 10,000 rpm. The average ModMotor won't go there but 8500 is a very real number and there is a mountain of horsepower waiting for us up there.

The other thing I forgot to mention in post #1 was the support for virtually any type of ignition coil available today which means we are no longer limited by the 20 Millijoule COPs that Ford provided the engine with. In fact the MS3PRO has direct support for IGN1 coils that produce 116 millijoules of energy per spark even stronger than the Mercury Marine IGN1-A version of the coils at 108 millijoules. You can say goodbye to spark blowout above 6000 rpm.

It is stunning when you see all the horsepower that is waiting to be harvested in the upper rpm bands.

Ed
 
#5 · (Edited)
Well Kevin, it is plug compatible right? Save your OEM ECU, unplug the MS3Pro when you are ready to go back to the street, Plug in the OEM ECU and don't worry be happy. Don't forge to tell the OEM CPU what size injectors you are running. Couldn't be easier.

Ed
 
#6 · (Edited)
Well Kevin, it is plug compatible right? Save your OEM ECU, unplug the MS3Pro when you are ready to go back to the street, Plug in the OEM ECU and don't worry be happy. Don't forge to tell the OEM CPU what size injectors you are running. Couldn't be easier.

Ed
My ECU has a workable tune from my last set up. I'll have to talk to my tuner tomorrow and see if he's interested in working with this. I am putting everything together in the a week(s) or so. With a high compression, cammed, E85 car this might offer a level of safety and I can ditch my N2MB and not go through the effort of tapping in a J&S or the like. I feel the faster processor and increased resolution in the tables plus not having to scale gives a great benefit in precision. Definitely going to look into this, very exciting there still new tech coming out for this platform. Going to dig into this in the next few days and see what it offers in terms of ethanol content for safety, knock sensing, etc and make a decision. Price is pretty on point considering.

In my situation it would be a trade off seeing how many of the new features I could use and not make it a difficult swap back and forth. Not really looking to have to run external coils and wires and then have to switch back every time I want to street it. It does seem to have many positives vs all the piggy back type add on over the years.

EDIT: Just reading the break down, will this support knock sensing for 03-04 Cobras? Seems it might be skipped in that release. Is this due to noise or the lack of factory sensors, or am I mistaken? I have a J&S I've been looking to deploy for safety. Is this a possible replacement?

Not to hijack but isn't there rumors of a Holley system coming out later this year as well?
 
#8 ·
Ed
Or anyone else reading this with experience!
What are your thoughts on running this as speed density with a map sensor and no MAF meter?
I’ve always liked the thought of being able to ditch the MAF with an aftermarket ecu but also know some still like to retain it. My understanding is you can do either with this computer. Just curious if you have a preference and what benefits there are with either configuration.

Thanks
Ken
 
#10 · (Edited)
Ed
Or anyone else reading this with experience!
What are your thoughts on running this as speed density with a map sensor and no MAF meter?
I've always liked the thought of being able to ditch the MAF with an aftermarket ecu but also know some still like to retain it. My understanding is you can do either with this computer. Just curious if you have a preference and what benefits there are with either configuration.

Thanks
Ken
You are right about being able to run either with this ECU, Ken. In fact as delivered the ECU is set up for speed density just because it is MAF independent and frankly you can't put together base tunes for all the different flavors of MAF commercially available. Soooo, as you receive a MS3PRO PNP it will already be running speed density mode and can easily be finessed into a pretty nice tune for your geographical area.

The deal with MAF and Speed Density systems is one of adaptability and easy implementation. As you might suspect each attribute is associated with a different system model. The adaptability comes with the MAF based system and the ease of implementation comes with the speed density based systemm. The challenge with the speed density beased fueling model is if you do something to change the volumetric efficiency of the engine you need to retune to reflect the V[SUB]e[/SUB] change in th engine. Things that can cause a V[SUB]e[/SUB] change in the engine include cam phasing, air cleaner changes. CAI system, a change to a different CAI system, cam change, blower change, boost change, barometric change, geographical change and more.

The reason that Detroit uses MAFs on production vehicles is they have to meet stringent emissions standards worldwide, no matter the altitude, the temperature, the barometric pressure, the air density etc. The only system that can handle this in real time is the MAF based systems. BTW the reason F1 teams use MAF's on F! engines is exactly the same as the Motown motivations. They need absolute control over the fueling at all times during the race not just for engine performance but because they are fuel volume limited for any given race. The MAF based systems easily provide the fueling control they need to be competitive and finish the race without running out of fuel.

A lot of people claim the MAF based systems throttle the engine because of the sensor tonsil that protrudes into the flow path of the air. This is true of many of the over the counter MAFs available today. If you use a Pro-M MAF the MAF throat looks like this and the performance is stunningly different;

Camera accessory Camera lens Rim Automotive wheel system Auto part


This MAF is a 117mm ID which is big enough for a 105 Howitzer round to go through without touching. They also offer a smaller 92mm little brother that is good for up to 1500 HP and an 88mm sibling for lower power levels. I personally use the Pro-M 92. You can specify a mass flow figure for the MAF and they will build to your spec or you can use a commercially available MAF xfer function and they will build to that.

Why spend the money to mimic the commercially available MAF? Signal quality. There are no commercially available MAFs that can duplicate the cleanliness of the PRO-M MAF signal. Take a look at the 4 minute YouTube video below and you will get a better understanding of what I am talking about;

click here =>

When your MAF signal is erratic your ECU chases the erratic signal trying to match a fuel delivery model to the ever changing air mass - a waste of time and CPU cycles. Sometimes you can mute the signal to dampen the erratic peaking but then you get a slow to respond MAF. The Pro-M MAF fixes all that and charge reversion attributable to close LSA cams.

My preference, if you haven't already guessed, is a MAF based system. That doesn't mean that a Speed Density system will not work or will not give you good service. It will. The MAF based system, if you use a quality MAF, will work even better especially as you change cams, blowers, blower overdrives etc you won't have to retune because the MAF will be measuring and reporting the mass air flow to the ECU, which the ECU uses to calculate the engine's fuel requirement and injector pulse widths.

Ed
 
#9 ·
This is great! I bought a QuarterHorse and BinaryEditor a couple years ago so I'm not going to change ECU, but I would totally buy that if I had to do it again today.

Does it support real-time tuning like the QuarterHorse?
 
#11 ·
That really summed it up quite well for me Ed. I definitely want the simplicity and finer tuning and control that will come with running a MAF versus speed density. When my motor is done and a new bigger blower goes on I’ll definitely be looking to the Pro-M to handle that duty.

Ken
 
#13 ·
Here is a hot off the presses doc that gives some interesting insights into the MS3Pro PnP product. It is the MegaSquirt PNP Pro Manual. Don't let the name Manual put you off. This document is only 24 pages long with large print and big, clear pictures. It provides good insights into the product along with coaching and tips on how to setup and tune with the product. Pretty good stuff and excellent reading.


Ed
 

Attachments

#14 · (Edited)
I have the MS Pro on my car tho it's not the P-n-P version.

Flex Fuel: Let me start off by saying I know NOTHING about how to tune it. I talked to Chad at The Shop that would be tuning it and we discussed my plans for the car and when we were done I bought what my tuner told me to get then I installed it and let him do the tuning. Mine is a high HP street car and for that reason I wanted mine set up with flex fuel and it has saved some headaches due to running low on E85. With only a few places around town to get E85 it's very easy now to simply put a few gallons of 91oct in the tank to get me by. IMO, it's a no-brainer to have this function on a car especially a street car. As Ed mentioned, install the GM sensor in the fuel line and let the computer take care of the rest. No need to flip switches or anything. The computer monitors the fuel/alcohol content and automatically adjusts the tune based on what is in the tank and the blending option chosen. I run 3 fuel pumps which are controlled by the MS Pro and two come on at 7psi of boost.

Knock Sensing: I also have the J&S Vampire system monitoring for knock. I know the MS Pro has this capability but b/c I already had it installed on my car so I left it on. It's so friggen sophisticated that I'm not sure that the MS Pro can match it, ie Individual Cylinder Control, Hard or Soft knock retard, etc. Maybe it can, I dunno I never looked into it but I'm glad I have the J&S Vampire on.

Boost control is done by my Eboost2 b/c it was already installed. I thought about switching it to the MS Pro but I would have to set up switches in the car in order to change boost on the fly otherwise it can only be adjusted via the laptop. The Eboost is already setup this way so for this reason I prefer the Eboost over the MS Pro for boost adjustment/control.

My tuner wanted to get rid of the MAF so my car is MAF'less and no issues with drivability.

For now my car is done and I try to drive/show it instead of work on it but I would love to hook up traction control.

Now for some reality:
As I mentioned I cannot tune a guitar let alone an engine management computer and the MS Pro is no exception. I do not have the PnP version so it didn't come with any tunes. It does have a "self learn" in it but you still have to know what a timing table is and what info to put in the table and many other areas that require data. You still have to know what a fueling table is and what numbers you have to put into it. There is a LOT of info that you have to know in order to program the computer just to get it started. I was able to find the info to get it started then let the self learning do its thing. After a month or so of screwing with it, all I was able to do was get it to tune its self good enough so I could drive it around the block and to the tuner. In reality this was all I needed to do since the tuner would tune it for me but I really wanted to learn how to do a lot of it myself. By screwing around with it I was able to learn what is in the MS Pro and how adjustments are made so this was helpful to me but everyone said that it was easy to tune. WRONG! WRONG! WRONG!. It may be easy for those that have tuned a car before or know what info goes into the tables but if you are like me then don't kid yourself. There are forums for the MS Pro but they are a no help at all for beginners. Finding info that is specific enough to my situation was non-existent. This system is installed on boats, motorcycles, BMW's, etc so finding anything related to a 2V Mustang was impossible so the forums offered no help for me. The reality is if you feel that you cannot tune a car then you probably can't tune the MS Pro. If you feel that you have a grasp of tuning a car then you probably can.


ks
 
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#15 ·
Thank you for sharing your first hand experience, Kevin. It is always helpful to be able to hear from someone who has been there and done that. Your points about tuning, especially if you have not done it previously, are well made and something any potential adopters should consider carefully. While your implementation hill climb was steeper than it might be for an adopter of the PnP version it is none the less true that tuning, especially if you have not done it previously, can easily be a bridge too far right out of the gate. Take the time to have it done correctly by a shop that you trust that is physically close to you.

On the other hand if you are one of the lucky guys that seem to be able to pick up this kind of a discipline fairly easily - go for it! For this type of user there can be a special satisfaction you get from continually tweaking the tune to further optimize it for your car and your driving style. The tools are immediately. available and relatively easy to use. The tuning skills are the part you need to develop. Best part is if you want to explore the process it doesn't cost you a licensing fee for tuning software because it comes with the ECU. If you prefer to buy a tune and focus your energies elsewhere the ECU comes with all the software your tuner will require.

I am 100% in lock step with you on the flex fuel capability. It is simply a no brainer. At least for the time being the E85 stations are far less common than the normal gas stations. This flex fuel capability means you'll be able to drive anywhere you want and not have to worry about fuel availability - a very nice thing not to have to worry about that makes driving fun again.

Closing thoughts;

While the PnP version comes with a base tune in speed density format if you want to use a MAF based tune you will need to get a MAF xfer curve for your MAF or get yours flowed. SCT published the MAF xfer curves for their BA 2400/2600/2800/3000/5000 MAFS. I believe I have all of them. Ill dig them out later and publish them in this thread for anyone who might be looking for them and having difficulty finding them.

The Speed density approach to fueling, while not as comprehensive as the MAF based models, is none the less the approach used on virtually all aftermarket systems and works well. For those that want the works anywhere with any mod capability the MAF based approach will add some cost to your implementation because you need to get either a new MAF (of the airflow capacity you are looking for) with a MAF xfer function or you need to get your MAF flowed.

If emissions testing is a issue for you you might want to leave your OEM MAF in place. It will do no harm and if you need emissions testing it can be as simple as unplugging the PnP ECU and plugging in your OEM ECU. Something to consider ...

Ed

p.s. Nice power numbers BTW :)
 
#16 ·
Thanks Ed. Hopefully I'm not coming across as bashing the system b/c I'm certainly not qualified to bash it.

Doing my early research I read so many threads about how easy systems are to tune they almost had me believing I could do it all myself. But knowing myself and how people tend to overestimate peoples abilities I went in with a realistic mindset about the task at hand and I was right on. I did surprise myself in that my due diligence paid off after spending a month creating my own wiring diagram/manual for my car with each component and wire color drawn out that the car started as soon as I hit the key. It seriously brought a tear to my eye.

The MS Pro is extremely powerful b/c it has the ability to do so much, and for any type of vehicle, and browsing through the manual will give one a sense of the variability it has...incredible.

**

Hopefully I'll get the car to the track to see what it can do but for now I'm simply enjoying it.;)

ks
 
#17 ·
It didn't sound like bashing at all, Kevin. First hand experience from a real world user is always a big plus.

One of the tougher, more tedious jobs when you are converting over from one EFI system to another is always the wiring harness build out. We all try to have a tidy appearance under the hood which means wire loom length is just as important as getting the right wire and sensor paired up.

Sounds simple enough until you actually do it! Suddenly it becomes a lot of work, especially when you get the wrong wire paired up with the wrong sensor and cut it to length. Suddenly it is now too short to reach the proper sensor and you go into repair mode trying to correct your well intentioned but incorrect wire trim. The harness build out you did and especially the first start experience is a high mark to hit right out of the box.

I was talking to another MS3Pro user a while back and like yourself he was quite impressed with the capabilities the system had built in. In fact he called it the poor man's Motec or Haltech, both of which have well deserved reputations however, they are anything but inexpensive. He jokingly suggested you needed to own your own home so you could take out a second mortgage to buy one of them. The MS3Pro PnP systems are truly impressive in their capabilities and also their price point.

Thank you so much for contributing your experiences and congrats on a job well done.

Ed
 
#18 ·
Hi guys, I have used Megasquirt 3x on several cars including installing the full wiring harness and options such as water/meth, boost control, launch control etc. We have used it on Mustangs and mustang based kit cars 5.0 pushrod, N/A, Single turboed, and a 408 (351W) twin turbo build, and just now a stock terminator (not started yet).
It is a great system and IMHO the best bang for the buck by a long shot in the aftermarket stand alone ECU segment, with great support via the forums and vendors.
All that being said, any EFI tuning system comes with a steep learning curve (if you aren't already a tuner) and will require plenty of hours of fine tuning to get a car to idle and drive even close to a factory ecu.
WOT is the easy part and can be done in a few hours or a few pulls on a dyno. The drive-ability that the OEM ECU offers can't be beat, however once you've exceeded the factory ECU ability, or want the awesome features Ed listed, I believe the MS is the way to go. What I like about it is that it is an All in One box, you don't have to add very expensive add on modules like other aftermarket ECUs do, or have a bunch of different boxes for each feature all working separately and not talking together. Plus it data logs almost all the channels it uses at 100 records/sec and those logs are invaluable in troubleshooting any issues, improving your tune, and wringing out HP.
It's really great to see them releasing a PnP for these cars, that sure helps most ppl get into self tuning because a lot of the complicated settings are pre-configured and you don't have to mess with the harness either.
Mike
 
#19 ·
Thanks Mike. As I suggested to Kevin first hand experience from a real world user is invaluable. The reading, seeing and doing route is the way many of us learn the most. Your experience across three installs on three vehicles speaks volumes about the technology.

I am in complete agreement with you on the rich feature set. Any one of the fail-safes and performance features (like traction control) which they provide is individually a $600 acquisition give or take. When you look at all of them in one package and the tunability without the need to scale anything, their PnP product falls into the OH WOW category, in particular at the price point they are offering it at.

It is hard to explain to someone the aggravation associated with building an engine harness from scratch, not to mention the cost of the various connectors and sensors you will use to replace your stock sensors. You have to experience it first hand to really appreciate it. The ability to plug into the OEM harness and use all the OEM sensors, right out of the box, is an absolute God send.

Thanks again for sharing your experiences.


Ed
 
#20 ·
I’ve been reading through the manual and looking up mod motor cars that are running the current version of the MS3Pro (not the pnp). I have to say I’m getting more and more excited for the pnp release and using it on my new motor set up. I’ve read through the set up and tuning info and I will be taking Kevin’s advice and have someone experienced with the MS3Pro tuning do my car. I don’t need to melt down a new motor due to my inexperience. I will learn it and eventually do my own tweaking and adjustments down the road but only once I have a good foothold and understanding of the system as a whole.

Definitely looking forward to everything this system is capable of!

Ken
 
#21 · (Edited)
From my research and people who have shared their experience, both in this thread and otherwise, Ken, I am impressed with the MS3Pro PnP offering and I expect you will be also. The PnP version just raised my already good impression of the system several more notches with its use of the OEM wiring harness and its support of the OEM dash, sensors etc.

While it is always possible to build your own wiring harness the ability to use the OEM harness is a huge benefit. OEM harnesses are robust works of art designed to go a hundred thousand miles. Wiring harness construction is a tedious process at best and an absolute headache when you get a couple of wires and signals mismatched. There are 104 pins in the OEM ECU harness connector and almost all of them are used! That amounts to 104 chances to experience a whoops. Don't get me wrong, That doesn't mean it can't be fixed but you just substantially raised your frustration / aggravation level, along with the effort to find and resolve the whoops.

When you compound that with the need to use new and different sensors along with the cost of the myriad of new connectors you will need (at least two of which you'll likely mismatch) the potential aggravation index takes a sharp step upward. The ability to use your OEM harness and sensors and not have to buy all new connectors to attach the loom wires to their correct all new sensor is a huge cost and aggravation savings that is hard to fully appreciate until you experience the alternative, first hand.

The cost of the connectors is not an insignificant consideration either. The typical cost for a typical new connectors falls somewhere between $5 and $8 each. It is a breath of fresh air not to have to spend the money for all those new connectors or the wiring harness fabrication and crimping tools. The ability to side step the harness building and corresponding connector and sensor purchases is a significant cost savings (not to mention time savings) benefit when implementing an aftermarket EFI system.

Not withstanding its wide range of very attractive capabilities the PnP attribute is easily among the more impressive attributes of this new MS3Pro EFI system for Terminators and SN95 family cars.


Ed
 
#22 ·
You’re absolutely right Ed. There’s no better way to say it regarding the wire task between a pnp system and one you have to build from basically scratch. For me that is what has kept me away from a stand alone aftermarket ECU as well as the fact that I like the factory gauge cluster. I realize some of the gauges are just pretty versions of a dummy light but I just am a fan of the factory look. Getting back to the wiring....I hate wiring and doing anything with electrical. I’m a Union Pipefitter by trade so wiring has just never been my thing. I’ve done some wiring of gauges and some switches and relays for my trans brake and a few other things but I always cringe when it comes time to reconnect the battery and power things up lol. So much to the point that I have rolled my car out of my garage before putting power to it in the off chance I burn it down. So between the pnp aspect of it and the factory gauge support I’m sold. Sure I could have someone else do it but I pride myself on the fact that I have done everything myself to my car except for tuning and it will continue to go that way. I know I will have some wiring to tackle for some of the features that require extra signal inputs but I guarantee if I had to do the whole thing I would mess ALOT more than just a few wires and would probably end up building the harness 3 times or more. Aggravating would be putting it lightly :)

Ken
 
#24 ·
This is super exciting! I'll be interested to see how robust the knock detection strategy and features are. With what I do I guess it doesn't really matter if it just pulls all the timing to the whole motor vs the individual cylinder stuff, Im not out here racing with cash on the line. If it's competent enough I could sell my J&S setup, upgrade to bigger low impedance injectors, sell my IDs and probably not be out too much money for the upgrade.

Flex fuel and traction control would be amazing!

I won't be a test dummy for this but I will be following closely and will talk to my tuner
 
#25 · (Edited)
I think you will be pleasantly surprised, Jerry. This is a screen shot of one of the knock control screens that speaks to the stuff you are interested in;

Rectangle Font Line Screenshot Slope


I have used red highlight boxes to draw your attention to four different configuration capabilities that speak to your interests.

The First has to do with whether or not you use the monitoring and control on a cylinder by cylinder basis or just do all at once.

The Second has to do with establishing the knock count, rpm and MAP thresholds you want to pay attention to knock in.

The Third configures the max you want to retard, how frequently you want to check, and what you want to use for your coarse and fine timing adjustments wither up or down.

The Fourth window allows you to configure how quickly you want the ECU to reapply timing and in what step sizes you want this to happen.

There is a good deal more on this topic in the big MS3Pro Ultimate manual. The difference between the Pro version and the Pro Ultimate version is just I/O connections. The s/w features and how they work are identical.

The actual manual is too big to upload to the forum however, you can download it over here =>Complete MS3Pro Ultimate Manual.

Ed

p.s. Almost forgot, at the top of the page you have an opportunity to select the knock control sensor settings. The following is excerpted from the manual but speaks to another attribute you were interested in.

§7.3.7.1 Knock Sensor Settings

• Knock control: Allows you to change the way the MS3Pro applies timing retard.


......- Disabled: do not use knock feedback for ignition advance control

......- Safe Mode: use knock retard, but keep the advance below that which caused knock. This backs the

advance 1 small step back and leaves it at that until TPS or MAP changes - or knock comes back. This

is "safe mode" scheme is the safest thing for a DIY set-up.

......- Aggressive Mode: use knock retard, but keep advance at threshold of knock occurring. That is, the

program advances (up to the timing table value) if it doesn't see knock, and retards if does see knock.

The difference from safe mode is that the timing can be advance all the way to the table value after

knock, not just up to one step below knock. This may result in the knock returning, in which case the

timing is retarded again, then advanced slowly, and so on. This approach is also called closed loop

knock control.
 
#26 ·
fantastic information as always Ed, thanks! It looks like the knock detection has all you could ask for (to be honest, I'd probably pull the J&S and keep it for if/when I get another Lightning)

This is very cool stuff and just blurs the line that much further between street and race car. I've had dreams of other aftermarket setups but just couldn't justify it due to all the wiring, losing the stock cluster etc...

I did note it has this as the introductory price, I wonder if it will increase significantly at some point
 
#29 ·
fantastic information as always Ed, thanks! It looks like the knock detection has all you could ask for (to be honest, I'd probably pull the J&S and keep it for if/when I get another Lightning)

This is very cool stuff and just blurs the line that much further between street and race car. I've had dreams of other aftermarket setups but just couldn't justify it due to all the wiring, losing the stock cluster etc...

I did note it has this as the introductory price, I wonder if it will increase significantly at some point
Good question but I don't really know, Jerry. However if you look at their other PnP systems they are all right around that price point so my guess would be we are safe for the forseeable future. MegaSquirt has always been the price leader and I suspect they have no plans to change.

Ed
 
#27 ·
If anyone gets the Knock detection working, please let me know. Maybe update the thread with a screenshot of the settings.
I'm using a Terminator motor that didn't come with knock sensors from the factory. My understanding was the supercharger was too noisy to use them when they developed that motor, but the other 4 valve motors of that year and earlier have them such as the Mach1 and N/A cobras so it shouldn't be a valve train noise issue.
I'm sure the later GT500's used knock sensors so i don't know how the SC could preclude their use unless it had to do with the harmonics of the iron terminator block vs the aluminum?
I do have the Bosch sensors and the knock kit installed in my MS3x and would like to play with it, but I would have to find a place to mount them since the iron block has no provision for them in the valley. Not sure if it has bosses that can be tapped or not, as I never had the engine apart. If anyone knows or has retrofit a iron block w these please tell me how.
 
#30 ·
There have been some quantum leaps in knock detection / suppression technology in the decade and a half since the original Terminators. Down load the MS3Pro big manual. They will take you through the process by chapter and verse.

Ed
 
#28 ·
I know there is info out there on where to install the knock sensors on a Terminator engine. The J&S vampire knock control has several options in their instructions for locations at the sides of the block. I believe that info is on their site. I saved it somewhere but will have to look a bit for it.

Ken
 
#31 ·
Thanks Ken and Ed, I haven't been able to find any info on where to mount the knock sensors on an mod iron block, and I remember during the build giving it a pretty good go over externally. Ill keep looking.
The $1349.00 intro price is not bad and I swear I saw a $15xx.00 price marked down either in an email or on their site but cant find it now.
I was using the MS knock system since it was an 3rd party add on and the circuit had to be tuned to the hear the knock at a certain frequency, which reminds me make sure you get the exact knock sensor for your bore because it is acoustically tuned. So if you bore a motor get a sensor for that bore. A 4.6 and a 5.4 or 5.8 would knock at a different frequency. Im not sure how the current MS system detects knocks vs noise or how to tune that.
 
#32 ·
I have the Iron Cobra block and there is a threaded boss just behind the drivers side motor mount, the sensor can be mounted there w/o issues. I have the J&S and this is the recommended position.

ks
 
#33 · (Edited)
Great Keavin Thx, ill check when I get home. With the water/meth and 14#'s of boost I think im safe but really would like to get the knock control working since I have it all already anyhow.

This is the project: Stockish Terminator in a 2300# 65 Daytona Cobra Kit car, MMR TKO 600 (rated @ 900), MegaSquirt 3x, Water/Meth, Launch Control, etc.
Tire Wheel Car Vehicle Automotive tire
 
#34 ·
With the water/meth and 14#'s of boost I think im safe
Water/meth etc... might not matter in a failure event - pump, injector, meth system itself or just a really bad tank of fuel.
 
#38 ·
Thanks Ed! Yes I love tha panache and history behind these cars and there were only 6 originals built, that's what swayed my decision to stop my fox body build and go this route.
I have experienced TTO before, and I will definitely be careful about the tail coming around. Driving light cars with that much hp to weight ratio is always squirrely.
It's going to be a driver with AC and plans are to drive it to Sebring, Daytona and the local tracks and drag strips around here in S FL.
When I have the MS tune dialed in Ill share that here so we can compare Fuel and timing tables.
Mike
 
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