MS3Pro Terminator Version Arrives!! - Page 4

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  1. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by GodStang View Post
    The injectors will be changed I just have not done that yet as I am still deciding on the FIC1200/FID1300 which are half the price of the 2200 you posted. The 2200 are not too big? I am trying to just get the car started so that I can move it away from the lift. My main questions was my FPR is set for 50psi so I changed "Static/Target Rail Diff Pressure" from 40psi to 50psi (still 40psi in this pic).
    The 2200's are not too big, Josh. Generally speaking the three metrics you want to try to satisfy with injector selection are;

    ● Adequate fuel flow
    ● Good idle characteristics
    ● Max injector duty cycle << 80%

    If you stay inside the FIC injector offerings the one I would look at is their Denso based FIC 2000. It is has stainless internal construction, good idle qualities on E-85 and even at a 39 or 40 psi base pressure has excellent head room for future growth. Best of all it is the same price as the FIC 1200/1300 alternatives.

    In general the lower the fuel pressure you can get the fuel system to operate at the easier it is on your fuel system components and the higher quality the idle characteristics of the particular injector will be. Higher pressures require the injectors to operate at progressively lower pulse widths to properly fuel the engine at idle. Low pulse width performance is where most injectors get squirely in terms of consistent flow characteristics.

    The lower Ford OEM base pressure of 39.15 psi moves the idle pulse width up the injector's operating pulse width ramp into a happier place and your idle and low speed performance will benefit. With a sufficiently large flow capacity even at the reduced base fuel system pressure you will still have more than adequate head room for today's engine and almost anywhere you plan to go in the future. Another benefit is you will run the injectors an a much lower duty cycle and also a much lower temperature. High temperatures are not our friends when it comes to electromechanical devices, even when they have stainless internals.

    As a closing data point AJ runs pure methanol so his fuel system has an even higher fuel volume demand than E-85. We modified his intake manifold to use two 2200 cc injectors per port that are on all the time, they are not staged. Max duty cycle at WOT is ~60% and the car idles smooth as silk at essentially 1000 rpm. I believe AJ has idled it as low as 850 rpm or so on those dual 2200 cc units.

    The beauty of the bigger injector at low duty cycles is your available head room for growth without yet another injector purchase and also the TLC they give to the rest of the fuel system at a 40 psi base system pressure.




    Quote Originally Posted by GodStang View Post
    I went all through the startup/idle tab and could not find where I found last week to set idle. I of course printed out the Ultimate Manual and left in my Explorer to take to shop and ended up taking my wife's car to the shop and forgot to grab it. I will be back at it Saturday.

    It's called getting old, Josh! Welcome to the Over the Hill Gang . You will be going to that 'Oh Rats, I forgot', place more frequently now. Advancing years uses more paper notes ...



    Ed
    Last edited by eschaider; 10-19-2019 at 02:44 AM. Reason: Spelling & Grammar

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  3. #47
    Senior Member Array GodStang's Avatar
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    Anyone want to hook me up with their stock Cobra Tune? I have learned so much in the past few weeks I want to start a new project with a new tune. GodStang at Gmail dot com

  4. #48

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    You should be able to pull the original baseline tune off your USB drive and use it as the foundation for a new project and tune, Josh.



    Ed

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  6. #49
    Senior Member Array GodStang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eschaider View Post
    You should be able to pull the original baseline tune off your USB drive and use it as the foundation for a new project and tune, Josh.



    Ed
    My original tune was not on my thumb drive. I checked. Only things on my thumb drive was 2 pdfs, the instillation file for Tuner studio, and a driver. I may of accidentally moved it and then saved over it when I modded it.

  7. #50

    Default Injector Dead Times

    I just wanted to point out that MS (and any ECU including OEM) is sensitive to having the correct injector parameters plugged in for the rest of the fueling algorithm to work correctly. MS calls this Injector Dead Time, and these numbers are critical to a tuner.
    If you are going to buy new injectors make sure the supplier can give you these numbers because they are very hard to test and get on your own and make all he difference on how good you are going to get your tune, especially your idle. This is based in the electromechanical working of the injector, your fuel pressure, and your battery voltage.
    Example if you leave it stock setting of 1ms but your actual dead time is more like 1.2 or .8 ms then your fueling could be off up to 20% and make it difficult to tune.
    Below is an example from mine sent from the vendor. I have no affiliation with that vendor but if the difference is they can supply me with the exact numbers to plugin like these and another vendor that may be cheaper ill spend the extra dollar for the numbers.
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  8. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by GodStang View Post
    My original tune was not on my thumb drive. I checked. Only things on my thumb drive was 2 pdfs, the instillation file for Tuner studio, and a driver. I may of accidentally moved it and then saved over it when I modded it.

    Josh, check your email. I just sent you the original DIYAuto Terminator tune.


    Ed

  9. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by MustangMikeMia View Post
    I just wanted to point out that MS (and any ECU including OEM) is sensitive to having the correct injector parameters plugged in for the rest of the fueling algorithm to work correctly. MS calls this Injector Dead Time, and these numbers are critical to a tuner.
    If you are going to buy new injectors make sure the supplier can give you these numbers because they are very hard to test and get on your own and make all he difference on how good you are going to get your tune, especially your idle. This is based in the electromechanical working of the injector, your fuel pressure, and your battery voltage.
    Example if you leave it stock setting of 1ms but your actual dead time is more like 1.2 or .8 ms then your fueling could be off up to 20% and make it difficult to tune.
    Below is an example from mine sent from the vendor. I have no affiliation with that vendor but if the difference is they can supply me with the exact numbers to plugin like these and another vendor that may be cheaper ill spend the extra dollar for the numbers.

    You're right, Mike (did I guess the name correctly). There are a number of those parameters that are meaningful including what Ford calls low slope, high slope and where the injector transitions from one to the other, among other metrics.

    Greg Banish did an excellent write up on the low slope / high slope parameter and its significance a decade or so ago. I have attached it below for anyone interested in better understanding the phenomena. Fully characterized injectors will always provide superior drivability in service — assuming you use the data.


    Ed
    Attached Images Attached Images

  10. #53

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    Good guess on the name, and great article Ed! I hadn't seen that before and it nicely sums up what i was trying to (not so eloquently) say, Dead Time is easily one of the most important and overlooked parameters in MS.

    Here's a great summary quote from it.
    "Remember that any time you adjust the MAF or VE tables based on wideband error, your making the assumption that
    fuel delivery commanded by the PCM closely matches what’s really going into the engine. What good is all of the work
    to perfect a VE table or MAF transfer function if the fuel injector delivery is wrong? Even worse, what if we make the
    mistake of assuming that the injectors behave one way when they’re really doing something else?"
    Mike

  11. #54
    Senior Member Array GodStang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MustangMikeMia View Post
    Good guess on the name, and great article Ed! I hadn't seen that before and it nicely sums up what i was trying to (not so eloquently) say, Dead Time is easily one of the most important and overlooked parameters in MS.

    Here's a great summary quote from it.
    "Remember that any time you adjust the MAF or VE tables based on wideband error, your making the assumption that
    fuel delivery commanded by the PCM closely matches what’s really going into the engine. What good is all of the work
    to perfect a VE table or MAF transfer function if the fuel injector delivery is wrong? Even worse, what if we make the
    mistake of assuming that the injectors behave one way when they’re really doing something else?"
    Mike
    Thanks for the info on injectors. I need to see if I can find data on the FRPP 80s as I am running those for now until tax returns and I can decide on which injector to get.

    Ed thanks for the file. I will have all my parts in Saturday to install my Flex Fuel setup.

  12. #55

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    GodStang is this your injector M-9593-LU80? https://performanceparts.ford.com/pa...-9593-lu80.pdf
    Mike

  13. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by GodStang View Post
    Thanks for the info on injectors. I need to see if I can find data on the FRPP 80s as I am running those for now until tax returns and I can decide on which injector to get.

    Ed thanks for the file. I will have all my parts in Saturday to install my Flex Fuel setup.

    Josh,

    Good show on the flex fuel hardware.

    Here is the FRPP 80# injector characterization pdf.


    Ed



    p.s. Just saw what Mike posted. Same stuff just in a Ford format. I wanted to see the graphics so I trasnferred the numbers to a XL spreadsheet and graphed them.
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    Last edited by eschaider; 10-31-2019 at 03:40 PM. Reason: Added Postscript

  14. #57
    Senior Member Array GodStang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MustangMikeMia View Post
    GodStang is this your injector M-9593-LU80? https://performanceparts.ford.com/pa...-9593-lu80.pdf
    Mike
    Quote Originally Posted by eschaider View Post
    Josh,

    Good show on the flex fuel hardware.

    Here is the FRPP 80# injector characterization pdf.


    Ed



    p.s. Just saw what Mike posted. Same stuff just in a Ford format. I wanted to see the graphics so I trasnferred the numbers to a XL spreadsheet and graphed them.

    Thanks guys! That would be them!!

  15. #58
    Senior Member Array GodStang's Avatar
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    Ok how in the world does the numbers from those pdfs translate to this screen? Also would my numbers be different if my fuel system is set a 50psi base pressure?


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  16. #59

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    They don't, Josh. That screen is basically the turn on time for the injector or, if you will, how long it takes the pintle to move off the seat to allow fuel to pass through the injector. It is voltage (and pressure) dependent. Higher voltages move it more quickly and lower voltages move it more slowly. I believe the MS3Pro uses this information to also correctly time the injection point in crankshaft degrees. There is a write up on it (fairly good) in section 6.3.1 of the big manual.

    The injector small pulse width (<2msec) performance is what Ford refers to as the ALOSL or low slope and the AHISL is the high slope flow performance. It is also what Banish was speaking to in the paper of his that I posted in post 52 above. Essentially the rate of flow increase per unit time open during the ALOSL phase of operation is greater than it is after the injector pulse widths pass what Ford calls the FUEL_BRKPT which they choose to measure in pounds of fuel injected instead of injector pulse width. MegaSquirt goes into this phenomena in section 6.3.2 of the big manual.

    Essentially what the ECU is trying to do is not fuel the engine in an overly rich fashion at low injector pulse widths while simultaneously attempting to not run the engine artificially lean after passing the fuel break point where the injector fuel delivery transitions to the more linear high slope portion of the fuel delivery curve.

    In the FWIW bucket higher fuel base pressures above the 3BAR test point for aftermarket injectors will delay injector opening. Similarly base fuel system pressures above Ford's 39.15 psi (2.7BAR) will do the same thing for FRPP injectors.

    Megasquirt notes in the manual that unless you have this data they recommend turning off these tables — at least until you get the car starting reliably. You can always begin fiddling with these driveability parameters after you can reliably start and operate the engine.


    Ed
    Last edited by eschaider; 11-07-2019 at 03:37 AM. Reason: Spelling and Grammar

  17. #60

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    Josh, I was curious since i haven't had to mess with MS and Injectors in a while so i found a spreadsheet that will calculate the ford data to MS data accurately. (super valuable to a computer/tuner geek like me) This is not my work but one of the guys from the MS forums.
    The only discrepancy I noted was the batt voltage offset usually crosses over 100% at 13.2v but he is using 14.0v which isn't a big deal.

    I did the calcs for you @ 50psi base fuel pressure, but feel free to download and play with it. I would plug these in before tuning, better to build your foundation on since we have them.

    Dead Time 0.869732414
    Dead Time Voltage Curve
    8 221.85%
    11 142.57%
    12 126.97%
    13 112.73%
    14 100.00%
    15 90.01%



    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...#gid=302838282

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