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11-15-2019, 11:30 AM #76
You have it right, Kevin. That is the right way to confirm that the TDC mark and the 10˚ BTDC mark are in fact correct. For readers, if you don't confirm that the TDC and 10˚ BTDC timing marks are correct, you are baking the incorrect timing (from the incorrect timing cover indexing) into the cake so to speak.
When you use a TDC stop and a Degree Wheel you are correctly "calibrating" the timing marks on the timing cover. You can either use a small dab of paint or put a small notch on the damper opposite the timing cover TDC marking for "True TDC" after you have correctly located it. If you choose to notch the damper, you will need to mark it, again with a dab of paint, and pull the damper to do it. The small dab of paint and leaving the damper on is far less labor intensive. Once you have TDC correctly identified then you need to check the positioning of the 10˚ BTDC mark on the front cover — for all the same reasons.
Time to turn the crank again, this time to 10˚ BTDC on the degree wheel. If your new TDC mark on the damper does not line up with the 10˚ BTDC mark on the timing cover, you have a timing cover whoops. Now without moving anything place a paint mark or scribe mark on your timing cover opposite the the TDC mark on your damper. Your new mark is the real 10˚ BTDC position. Time to start the engine and see how much you need to adjust the MS3Pro Tooth #1 Angle (BTDC) parameter.
When you start the engine and check the timing you will adjust the MS3Pro Tooth #1 Angle (BTDC) parameter until your new 10˚ BTDC mark on the timing cover and TDC mark on the damper line up — and you will be done.
In the FWIW bucket a mismatch of 8˚, like you experienced Mike, is virtual certain indicator that the factory marks are off and you need to recalibrate both the TDC and 10˚ BTDC marks before they are useable.
Last edited by eschaider; 11-15-2019 at 06:32 PM. Reason: Spelling and Grammar
11-15-2019, 06:03 PM #77
Great info as always!
I’ll be certain now to check this when I get my engine on the stand and am ready to start degreeing/phasing process.
11-15-2019, 06:30 PM #78
Got the Ethanol wires up and running. So that is pretty cool and we test run doing the timing on my spare engine.
11-15-2019, 06:47 PM #79
You will LOVE having this option! I predict that it will save you having to walk to an E85 gas station more than once!
As an FYI, I also checked the E85 measurement that MS shows to a E85 test kit and they were both spot on with each other.
11-15-2019, 08:45 PM #80
Very nice and very clean job — as usual, Josh.
12-07-2019, 09:27 AM #81
What are the chances that when you go to check timing the notch is already almost where you need it!
12-07-2019, 12:56 PM #82
Your picture printed poorly, Josh. Here is a better view of it;
The red arrow points at your damper's TDC reference mark. Your damper's TDC reference mark appears to be somewhere between the 10˚ BTDC and 30˚ BTDC on the timing cover, favoring the 30˚. My guess is about 25˚ / 27˚ BTDC. This could be caused by rotation over time.
You need to establish a new damper TDC mark that aligns with the timing cover TDC mark when the engine is at TDC.
Th easiest way to do this is with a piston stop and a large ratchet. With the piston stop in and all eight plugs out, rotate the crank clockwise until the piston comes up against the piston stop. Place a sharpie mark on the timing cover opposite the TDC reference notch on the damper. Now rotate the crank counter-clockwise until again comes up against the piston stop. Place a second sharpie mark on the timing cover opposite the TDC reference notch on the damper. Remove the TDC stop.
TCD for the crank will be when the TDC reference notch on the damper is exactly midway between those two marks. When it is you need to place a new a mark on the damper that is in line with the TDC arrow that is cast into the timing cover. That mark can be a paint mark of if you are motivated a notch that you file into the damper after marking it with paint and removing it from the crank snout to make notching easier.
This new notch and the timing cover TDC mark are the timing marks you use for establishing the correct entry in the Tooth #1 Angle field in Tuner studio's Ignition Options Screen.
The way yours looks, in your picture, suggests the TDC mark that is cast into the timing cover is off somewhere around 25˚ which is not surprising because, to my knowledge it is not used for anything.
Hope this helps.
12-07-2019, 04:46 PM #83
Ed all I was showing is how close the notch was when I first started. I never get that lucky. We found top dead center of cylinder #1 and the line was perfect. We then put a paint mark to make the notch more noticeable. We set the computer to 10DBTC and used a timing light. It was perfect. This is what I would expect to get when your engine was built from a high end shop.
12-07-2019, 09:29 PM #84
Apologies for the pedantic prattle, Josh. I misread your commentary and picture.
To get one that comes in that close you need to live a charmed life. At least I do. Normally I always end up doing the extra pushups to get to where I wanted.
12-13-2019, 09:17 AM #85
- Join Date
- Nov 2010
I wanted to update my situation, although I don't have a PNP I do have the MS3x and a stock terminator motor. Initially when I checked timing with a light and the front cover marks, I did it only while cranking, and needed to pull 8 deg to get the 10btdc marks to align when the MS3x 10btdc. Since then I have checked TDC mark vs Physical TDC with #1 plug pulled using a mm ruler with a bolted down pointer (redneck dial indicator). It was aligned pretty perfectly or less than 1 deg to the best my rig could indicate. Then after I got a stable idle I re tested and found while idling at 800rpm I did have to set the MS3x back to 400deg to align the marks.
I would think being hand assembled these would be pretty point on.
I since have the car running pretty good and it is a beast at 2200 lbs
12-13-2019, 09:30 AM #86
12-13-2019, 12:47 PM #87
Thanks for sharing, Mike. It always helps when someone that has been there and done that can share their experience. It saves exploring a lot of dead ends.
The Daytona's have always been one of my favorites, sadly, so too were the roadsters. I had to do the open cockpit roadster first so the Daytona is slated for project #2. Before embarking on the project, I drove both and the driving experience is surprisingly different. Each is special in it's own way.
A lot of people don't know the story behind the origins of the car although some may know who the designer was. Here is a link, for anyone who has an interest, with a short (13min) video about the origins of the car from the man who created it, Peter Brock. As Peter observes towards the end of his commentary this was the last generation of race cars that would be built exclusively by racers in their shops without corporate involvement.
Click here => Cobra Daytona Origins
12-13-2019, 01:40 PM #88
- Join Date
- Nov 2010
Cool, thx Ed. Netflix has a great movie called Shelby American and highlights a lot of the racing history in a matter of fact way that is lost in the recent Hollywood Ford vs Ferrari.
Many people don't realize the reason H Ford II hired Shelby for the GT40 program is because he had already beat Enzo Ferrari in the GT championship in 65 with the Daytona Cobra, no factory backing and just a bunch of California hot rodders in a garage.
12-13-2019, 06:55 PM #89
Sorry for the lack of focus Mike, but I just love your Daytona.
The Ford v. Ferrari movie while entertaining and also informative about the goings on before, in and around and after LeMans was factually air-brushed to produce what the studio thought would sell at the box office — and it did. The real story, as I suspect you know, had much more texture, character, and substance. Although it certainly would have been a gamble to put the unpolished story out, I think it might just have done as well, perhaps even better.
Th good news is there is so much more to the epic Southern California struggle between not just Shelby and Ferrari but also the birthing process for what was destined to become The most iconic race car of the last century. Amazingly it all happened in a well known but tiny little shop owned by one Dean Moon. The real story is truly the stuff that legends are born out of — and they were ...