MS3Pro Terminator Version Arrives!! - Page 7

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  1. #91

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    Follow Josh's lead. He architected his fuel system very nicely.


    Ed

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  3. #92
    Senior Member Array dsg2003mach1's Avatar
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    any updates on this? I know there had been some little bugs ie bounching speedo and such... just curious how people are liking them and if there any other issues to be considered.

  4. #93

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    I wasn't aware of and have not heard of a bouncing speedo problem, Jerry. For all the reasons mentioned at the beginning of this thread, in particular the straight forward programming and the multiple engine safeties built into the s/w, this ECU should be a no brainier. The sole reason someone would have difficulty with this in a DD is emissions. None of the things the inspection center looks for are present in the ECU software and to my knowledge never will be. That means if you need to pass emissions you need to keep your OEM ECU to plug back into your harness after unplugging the MS3Pro PnP prior to going to your inspection center.


    Ed

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  6. #94
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    I have the bouncing speedo, but I also have it tied in to the front ABS (TH400). I need to go through those settings and get it working as it bounces to zero quite often.

    FWIW, for anyone considering getting the MS3, it is actually easy to use once you read through everything, and the key is paying attention to the logs. After 1 week, my car is pretty much dialed in (3.4 crusher at 30ish pounds/stock long block/FIC1650's/twin 465's with 10 feed 8 return/e85/th400).
    Last edited by ITSTOCK; 10-02-2020 at 03:54 PM.

  7. #95

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    Why did you choose to use the front ABS, Steve? Was the TH400 speedo pickup unusable ?

    Have you been able to determine what it is about the front ABS pickup that causes the bouncing speedo behavior? I suspect that the higher rpm of the drive shaft vs a wheel based sensor might be a contributing factor but the tone rings for wheel based sensors usually have an increased number of teeth to compensate for the difference in rotational speed.

    My perception about the MS3Pro PnP mirrors your own. I was pleasantly surprised by both the access to all tuning parameters and also the user interface organization and presentation that EFI Analytics provides in their tuning software.



    Ed

  8. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by eschaider View Post
    Why did you choose to use the front ABS, Steve? Was the TH400 speedo pickup unusable ?

    Have you been able to determine what it is about the front ABS pickup that causes the bouncing speedo behavior? I suspect that the higher rpm of the drive shaft vs a wheel based sensor might be a contributing factor but the tone rings for wheel based sensors usually have an increased number of teeth to compensate for the difference in rotational speed.

    My perception about the MS3Pro PnP mirrors your own. I was pleasantly surprised by both the access to all tuning parameters and also the user interface organization and presentation that EFI Analytics provides in their tuning software.



    Ed
    It was more for ease of installation when I did the Th swap a couple years ago, and it worked fairly accurately with the stock computer. My Th400 has the freeze plug in and I never got around to changing it. As for the bouncing, I believe I just need to adjust the ring teeth setting to 50 so that it isn't all out of whack. Hopefully I'll get a drive in today to see if that does it.

    I tried reaching out to a bunch of different people for help tuning as I was encountering problems, and I finally had one tuner tell me that vac lines were messed up based on the idle KPA (they were, I had a couple lines switched up which dropped the KPA to low 30's when he thought they should be high 30's, something I never would have seen), then I realized the big problem that I had was overboost protection was turned on at 220kpa (duty cycle would drop to zero on the log every time at 220) and I am well above that (300kpa at 6200 and a slipping belt now with it off). Take that as advice to people playing with the MS3, make sure you go through ALL of the parameters. Everything else is really straight forward.

    The most impressive part about this is how well it idles and drives. I know most reputable tuners don't touch MS3, and the tuner that I have been using for the past 15 years is one of them. His main problem was something along the lines of the software won't allow for proper IAC control, however it is now idling smoother than it ever has, and just as smooth as my stock Cobra.

    The current setup is as follows....

    Stock longblock with ARP 2000 head studs
    3.4 Whipple Crusher 3" upper only
    TH400
    9" SRA
    FIC 1650's, twin 465's, 10 feed 8 return on E85
    Killer Chiller (stock intercooler (J2 will go in when it arrives), no heat exchanger, it seems to be handling temps okay for the short pulls that I've done)
    1 5/8 long tubes
    Full interior street car at 3810# race weight

    The old setup was on the stock computer and pretty well maxed out with the little 2.3 whipple on C16, running pretty consistent 9.7's at low 140's. The new setup feels quite a bit faster in the mid range.
    Last edited by ITSTOCK; 10-04-2020 at 08:38 AM.

  9. #97

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    A number of the tuners I have spoken to expressed similar concern over MS ECU's. When I ask the pregnant why question, the answers that come back, obviously worded differently, always boiled down to what one tuner described as the Heathkit problem. Essentially the ECU was a hand soldered sophisticated electronic device assembled by a non professional and could easily have 'manufacturing quality control' problems, attributable to the builder. Because the 'manufacturing problem' was essentially untraceable it could easily put the tuner in a bad light when it was not his fault. The factory manufactured DIYAutitune units with their lifetime warranty directly address this shortcoming. That said the production line assembly while surprising, still did not allay the concerns of many of the suspicious tuners.

    In the FWIW bucket there are any number of non MS based ECU's that get a bad rap from particular segments of the tuner community. In the end I think it comes down to what they know and are familiar with in conjunction with their ability to use those systems to produce happy outcomes for their customers. For example, at the high end of the difficult to implement scale you have a ProEFI system that is well supported by a cadre of ProEFI dealers and tuners and not at all liked by tuners that have a different favored ECU. Granted a ProEFI is more challenging to implement but it's capabilities and the system's tunability are quite a bit more sophisticated. At the other end of the scale you have easy to install, easy to tune and use 'simpler' EFI systems that these tuner advocates provide high praise for.

    In the end you will live with your choice long after your tuner finishes his job, so you want to choose items that produce the best outcome for you — and only you can determine that.



    Ed

  10. #98
    Senior Member Array dsg2003mach1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ITSTOCK View Post
    I have the bouncing speedo, but I also have it tied in to the front ABS (TH400). I need to go through those settings and get it working as it bounces to zero quite often.

    FWIW, for anyone considering getting the MS3, it is actually easy to use once you read through everything, and the key is paying attention to the logs. After 1 week, my car is pretty much dialed in (3.4 crusher at 30ish pounds/stock long block/FIC1650's/twin 465's with 10 feed 8 return/e85/th400).
    thanks for the update, I may have missed the other posts about it being tied into the front abs

  11. #99
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    Apparently I need an adapter to use the ABS to go from VR as the computer can't handle the frequency on that input. In that case, I guess it's either GPS or figure out something else with a mechanical adapter. What's the most simple way to go? I'd prefer to NOT use GPS.

    I also made my first self-tuned pass last night, but it wasn't without issues. It went [email protected], however, there was major belt slip from 29 down to 24 as rpm's climbed. While that's mechanical related, the issue I had was that I was short shifting far before my 7000 goal (not that it would have mattered do to belt slip) because the stock tach is jumping all over the place. Any suggestions on why that is happening? I plan on checking the grounds today.

    All in all, a successful first time out on what I was hoping was a very conservative tune. I'm pretty sure there is an easy 4/10th's and 6mph left as is with a fixed belt and correct shift point. I also forgot to turn autotune on for this so the a/f was far below my target, typically in the 10.0-10.4 range as opposed to the 10.8 target.

    Again, this is a full weight+ 100% street car that I wouldn't hesitate driving across country (if I could find E85 stations along the way).

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    Last edited by ITSTOCK; 10-10-2020 at 12:16 PM.

  12. #100

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    Very nice work there Steve. Was that plug street driven before being raced and how many quarter mile laps on it?


    Ed

  13. #101
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    That has 2 passes on it, the 9.7 and a hot lapped 9.8(@134, boost dropped to 16#'s on that pass), then directly on to the trailer, off the trailer, then in to the garage. So not a 100% representation, but I believe it's close enough to tell on E85.

    The plan is to leave the tune as is until I get the belt and tach/shift point situation figured out, then I'll pull some fuel.
    Last edited by ITSTOCK; 10-11-2020 at 08:24 AM.

  14. #102

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    This commentary reflects my own opinions on methanol plug appearance and reading.

    The plug in your picture is going to be hard to read in part because of two passes on the plug and in part because of oil in the combustion process. To properly read a plug and therefore your tuning position you need to check it at the end of the first pass. Importantly you do not want to drive the car back from quarter mile to the pits. A lot of guys are going to say this type of practice is overkill. I can tell you in absolute terms from 50 years of racing supercharged methanol engines it is not.

    The pic below is one of the better pics I have seen that gives you the correct spark plug timing and fueling appearance for a supercharged methanol (or ethanol) race engine. Your center electrode porcelain should always be snow white without any black pepper marks visible.

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    This is a single pass with the car towed back from quarter mile and the plug removed back at the trailer. Everything on this plug is picture perfect. The timing heat mark is right at the half way point on the strap, the heat range mark is half way down the center electrode and the face of the plug shell looks like it came out of the box. You can also find the face of the plug shell with what looks like a light coating of white talcum powder. If you touch this powder like substance with your finger you will find it easily wipes right off and the unmolested out of the box appearance of the plug shell is below it.

    Your plugs show oil contamination and appear to have been driven on the street for many miles (even though they were not). The oil contamination is a problem. Oil in the combustion chamber of a supercharged engine will induce destructive detonation. This needs to be avoided. Before making any engine changes or modifications I would put in a new set of plugs, make a single pass shut off at quarter mile, get towed back to the trailer and pull a plug for reading. Based on what you find begin to make modifications to produce the plug appearance that you see in the pic above.


    Ed
    Last edited by eschaider; 10-11-2020 at 05:54 PM. Reason: fixed broken pic link

  15. #103
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    I put new plugs in for a pass yesterday, but ended up driving back to the pits. They looked relatively close to what the original picture was, but a lot cleaner. I'll try to remember the socket next week to get an accurate picture of whats going on. Either way, no specs at all on the porcelain which is surprising consider my boost "issue". The tach is still bouncing around a little on me, but not nearly as bad. I don't know if this is an MS3 problem or ground issue, but I can't find any bad ground connections anywhere. My next area that needs work is the AE table, what's the best way to work on that? Do I let the auto tune do it over time, or will that not compensate enough?

    For yesterdays pass, I rolled in to throttle in 1st gear, then went WOT in 2nd and 3rd, and went 9.5. At a peak of 32.7 pounds of boost. That roush tensioner flat out works. I ordered a 3.25 pulley and 1 7/8th/3" x pipe to see if I can bring it down, whichever gets here first will get installed asap. MAT's are getting up to above 200 and I'm pulling timing starting at 180, with a couple pounds less boost I should be below that threshold.

    Overly rich, but I'll get there eventually.


    Last edited by ITSTOCK; 10-18-2020 at 08:11 AM.

  16. #104

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    I suspect you have your MS3 still calibrated for gasoline. Your "rich" 10.1 AFR that you are running at would melt an E-85 fueled engine to the ground I first gear if the ECU was set up for E-85. Yours is not which is what is saving your bacon! The very first order of business for you should be to get your MS3 properly calibrated for E85 and then make sure you actually have E-85 in the tank when you race. Pump grade E=85 is all over the map and totally untrustworthy for cars trying to optimize their tunes. If you run pump grade E-85 you need to incorporate a fuel sensor into your fuel feed line to tell the MS3 what % ethanol the engine is actually using at any point in time.

    Properly calibrated your E-85 target lean threshold is an AFR of 7.32:1, see the fuels table below;

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    Start by getting your MS3 properly set up for the fuel you are using. While you are at it make sure your injectors are large enough to feed the engine at the boost levels and engine speeds you intend to operate at and at a reasonable duty cycle. What is reasonable? When we used to be injector limited we would push fuel pressures and injector duty cycles to try to get enough fuel. That is not necessary today. While you can shoot for an 85% duty cycle, like we used to, it is to your advantage to target somewhere in the 50 to 60% duty cycle range. It should go without saying to make sure the injectors are properly characterized before using them, so you can properly characterize them in the tuning software..

    Your IAT2 temps are waaaaaaaaaaay too high. You need to run an intercooler large enough to sink away the heat energy (BTU's) that the compressor generates and get your IAT2 numbers below the 145/150˚ F threshold - the further the better. If you do not you will be plagued by high IAT2 temps, burned pistons and broken engine components. Ford's guidelines as to where they started pulling timing and adding fuel to manage warranty claims, to be within the range a Detroit OEM likes to work with, would be a good target for you — because you are now paying the warranty expenses out of your own pocket!

    When your IAT2 temps go above that 145/150˚F threshold, you need to begin to pull timing and add fuel, immediately! The reduction in power will not feel good but the reduction in dollars spent to replace burnt and broken pieces will. If you find yourself frequently breaching that 145˚ / 150˚ F temperature threshold your engine is telling you that your intercooler and/or your heat exchanger is too small and you need to upgrade them.

    That said 145 to 150˚ F is a good place to begin to back off timing and start richening the mixture to prevent damage to the engine and your wallet. While you might want to go a whisker higher for a maximum effort engine I would recommend you put a hard line in the sand at 23˚ total timing and absolutely go no higher. If you wanted to add a little DMZ between you and piston failure back that down to 21˚/22˚.

    All the auto tune capability will do is get you in the ball park. The actual optimization must be done by a human tuner — in this case that is you. There is no AE table in the MS3Pro tuning software. There is a Fuel VE table that should be uniformly set to "1" everywhere if you are running a MAF, which I highly recommend. See the table below;

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    The only other fueling table you might be referring to, I believe, is the AFR table, see below;

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    Do not use the entries in the table above for your engine. It is not for a supercharged application and it is not for E85.

    The MS3 is an extraordinary piece of engine fueling technology. Used properly it will allow you to safely optimize your engine's power output. Used recklessly or haphazardly it will accelerate the demise of your engine.


    Ed
    Last edited by eschaider; 10-18-2020 at 01:51 PM. Reason: Fixed broken pic link

  17. #105
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    I'm used to the gas scale, so that's why I have it calibrated that way. I know ideally, and I can eventually do this, Lambda is preferred. I'm testing every time I get E85, and so far, it has surprisingly been exactly E85. Straight pump WAWA E85, I expect it to change in the coming months. The rough conversion that I was aiming for would be 7.2 on the E85 scale at WOT.



    The injectors are 1650's, so no issue there.

    With other racing fuel, I was always told to start backing timing off at 160, but with E85, it's my understanding that the IAT sensor does not account for the combustion temp and cooling effect of E85 inside the cylinder. I'm currently running 17* max timing, and pulling as stated above (it went down to 14.7 on that 9.5 run above). I figure with a larger upper pulley, I can keep the timing do to lower temps and still have the same result with less boost. I think I'm good there either way. But on to the E85 and cooling effect inside the combustion chamber, if I misunderstand, I will most certainly ditch the killer chiller and move to the trunk tank that I have. The J2fab intercooler should be here soon as well, so that is going in regardless. Due to the small size of the underhood "ice" reservoir, I'm pretty sure it's just not enough capacity for the bigger blower, regardless of what cooling I have going on.

    I'm running strictly on speed density, idles and cruises like stock throughout some different weather changes. My VE table is kind of a mess right now, as the auto tune is turned on, and I'm also pulling some fuel out because I have the autotune so that it only adjusts so much (I believe 10 in the VE table is the max correction that I have it set for right now).

    The AE table that I'm referring to is the acceleration enrichment "map", so throttle in/hard acceleration. I have NO CLUE what to do there, and I am either spiking insanely rich or a little lean when I mash the throttle. Maybe I don't even touch it and do it through the VE table?
    Last edited by ITSTOCK; 10-18-2020 at 04:27 PM.

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