MS3Pro Terminator Version Arrives!! - Page 8

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  1. #106

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    Quote Originally Posted by ITSTOCK View Post
    I'm used to the gas scale, so that's why I have it calibrated that way. I know ideally, and I can eventually do this, Lambda is preferred. I'm testing every time I get E85, and so far, it has surprisingly been exactly E85. Straight pump WAWA E85, I expect it to change in the coming months. The rough conversion that I was aiming for would be 7.2 on the E85 scale at WOT.
    You have been lucky. When you are out and need fuel and get a lower ethanol percentage you will be in trouble. Why play Russian roulette with your engine when you don't have to? Put an ethanol fuel sensor in fuel feed line and let the MS3Pro adjust on the fly for whatever you actually get at the pump.



    Quote Originally Posted by ITSTOCK View Post
    The injectors are 1650's, so no issue there.
    If you run a 7:1 (E-85) AFR (~0.71 lambda) you injectors max out your injectors at 7500 rpm and a 79% duty cycle. A 79% duty cycle is certainly better than an 85% duty cycle but that still leaves leaves you somewhere between very skinny and no wiggle room. You essentially need larger injectors. There is a fuel system calculator in the TToC (with instructions) that can help you select injectors that will provide a better corridor of safety for engine fueling.



    Quote Originally Posted by ITSTOCK View Post
    With other racing fuel, I was always told to start backing timing off at 160, but with E85, it's my understanding that the IAT sensor does not account for the combustion temp and cooling effect of E85 inside the cylinder. I'm currently running 17* max timing, and pulling as stated above (it went down to 14.7 on that 9.5 run above). I figure with a larger upper pulley, I can keep the timing do to lower temps and still have the same result with less boost. I think I'm good there either way. But on to the E85 and cooling effect inside the combustion chamber, if I misunderstand, I will most certainly ditch the killer chiller and move to the trunk tank that I have. The J2fab intercooler should be here soon as well, so that is going in regardless. Due to the small size of the underhood "ice" reservoir, I'm pretty sure it's just not enough capacity for the bigger blower, regardless of what cooling I have going on.
    No IAT2 sensor can read combustion temps, irrespective of fuel. IAT2 sensors are limited to after I/C temp monitoring when installed post I/C.

    In a properly tuned ethanol fueled engine your exhaust temps will hover around 1000˚F or lower. By way of comparison gas EGT's can easily fun from 350 to 500 degrees higher. That said you can do an excellent job of melting pistons in an engine fueled by either of the alcohols. When you are lean you can also detonate alcohol. The detonation effect, which can be severe, will collapse ring lands and crack cylinder blocks, typically in the mains and between the cylinders. Additionally the continuous hammering of the head casting will loosen valve seats and eventually crack the heads.



    Quote Originally Posted by ITSTOCK View Post
    I'm running strictly on speed density, idles and cruises like stock throughout some different weather changes. My VE table is kind of a mess right now, as the auto tune is turned on, and I'm also pulling some fuel out because I have the autotune so that it only adjusts so much (I believe 10 in the VE table is the max correction that I have it set for right now).
    Speed Density is an easier to get running model but a much harder to fueling model to optimize after the fact. Mass air flow based models allow the ECU to correct, in real time, for changes in the air mass the engine consumes, maintaining the proper fueling under all atmospheric conditions on the fly. This is why the F-1 teams almost universally default to mass air based fueling models (I think it is currently 100%) in their highly tuned engines and Detroit defaults to mass air based fueling models in daily driver production vehicles so their engines can meet the strict regulatory imposed emission standards anywhere in the world, at any altitude and any barometer or temperature reading at any time. It is to your advantage to use a mass air based fueling model and the MS3Pro has great support for it.



    Quote Originally Posted by ITSTOCK View Post
    The AE table that I'm referring to is the acceleration enrichment "map", so throttle in/hard acceleration. I have NO CLUE what to do there, and I am either spiking insanely rich or a little lean when I mash the throttle. Maybe I don't even touch it and do it through the VE table?
    Use the Accelerator Pump based fuel enrichment model.

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    If you have tuned with carburetors before this will be the most familiar model for you. The model allows for enrichment based on throttle position and how quickly the throttle moved to that position. See pic below,

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    I know that taking the time to properly set up the ECU can be frustrating but, the alternative is not very pretty.



    Ed


    p.s. Be sure to use a quality MAF from a supplier that can provide you a calibrated unit and the associated MAF Xfer function which you will need to set up the MS3Pro tuning s/w. I recommend Pro-M Racing's MAFs. They are all individually calibrated and come with the MAF Xfer data you will need to set up your MS3Pro.
    Last edited by eschaider; 10-19-2020 at 10:51 PM. Reason: Spelling & Grammar

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  3. #107
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    Ed,

    Thanks for your replies during this, even if I'm not doing what you are telling me to, I am reading and researching. I don't mind testing the fuel before filling up, so it's not much of an issue for me. The injectors, as I lean it out to where it should be, .78 lambda, won't the duty cycle drop a bit?

    On SD vs MAF, I was under the impression that the MAF wasn't up to par on the higher power engines (important for later), so SD would be the go to option anyway. I have the MAF in the car right now, but not connected/not in use, however it's the GT500 slot and i'm not sure what power level it supports.

    I played with the AE settings as you recommended and the lean spike appears to be, for the most part, gone, dumping a little extra fuel this time around.

    My track visit on Friday was a relative success, though it still seems like I'm down a ton of power. But 5-6 pounds less boost, way worse air, headlight in (yea, this is a stupid one, but my old 2.3 whipple combo it consistently added 1-2mph), and it went [email protected], very crappy track prep so mid 1.5 60's.

    With the 7 gallon tank, icing immediately before the pass, but no pre ice routine, IAT's didn't get out of the 120's. This is with the EMP pump, 1" lines feeding through the 3/4 for the killer chiller and out of the completely stock intercooler, and still no heat exchanger. After the pass, the IAT's were back down to 100 or below before I got to the trailer. I'm impressed with how cool it runs.

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    I also picked up the new bullet yesterday, basic build is...
    10:1 std bore teksid, billet main caps. Manley hd I beam rods , new Manley crank with crank snout mod done and woodruff key milled out and a tool steel square key put in its place, diamond pistons ,.5 over stainless valves , bronze valve guides , custom grind bullet cams, arp 2000 everything , mmr billet chain guides tensioners all billet sprockets cloyes adjustable cam gears primary and secondary heavy duty chains over sized chain guide down pins, pac coyote valve springs, along with 1 7/8 kooks headers and full 3" exhaust. The crank support will go in with this, along with the new J2 intercooler, and I'm debating on moving up to the 3.0 whipple. The plan is to learn a little on my stock engine through the fall, then get the new engine in early winter and hit the dyno to be ready for the spring.


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    Last edited by ITSTOCK; 10-25-2020 at 02:36 PM.

  4. #108

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    [QUOTE=ITSTOCK;2264601]Ed,

    Quote Originally Posted by ITSTOCK View Post
    Thanks for your replies during this, even if I'm not doing what you are telling me to, I am reading and researching. I don't mind testing the fuel before filling up, so it's not much of an issue for me. The injectors, as I lean it out to where it should be, .78 lambda, won't the duty cycle drop a bit?
    You do not know where you are right now in terms of AFR or lambda because you have not properly set up your MS3 ECU. Making decisions about richening or leaning the fuel mixture without knowing where you are is potentially problematic worst case disasterous. Properly calibrate the ECU then make some easy passes and decide what you want to do. The effort will seem vanishingly small in comparison to the price or the repairs if you choose poorly.


    Quote Originally Posted by ITSTOCK View Post
    On SD vs MAF, I was under the impression that the MAF wasn't up to par on the higher power engines (important for later), so SD would be the go to option anyway. I have the MAF in the car right now, but not connected/not in use, however it's the GT500 slot and i'm not sure what power level it supports.
    100 hp requires 10 lbs of air per minute or 600 lbs of air per hour. Use some of the tools smart guys who have gone before us have left behind for us in the Cobra forum. Your first stop should be the TToC in the 03/04 Cobra Forum.

    The largest Pro-M MAFS can easily handle in excess of 25,000 lbs of air per minute possibly more. That works out to well over 2500 hp. Use some of the tools available to you in the TToC to calculate your engine's appetite for air and I suspect it will be in the 1000 lbs of air per minute range (or less!) — a walk in the park for any of the bigger Pro-M MAFs.

    Any of the commercially available MAFs with the exception of the Pro-M units will very likely not come with a MAF xfer table (flow table) which you will need to calibrate your MS3Pro ECU. Additionally they will be warmed over versions of either the basic 03/04 Cobra MAF or the GT500 MAF — neither of which come even close to the flow capacity you will need.

    If you look at the Pro-M product line up, depending on your engine's appetite for air, you will most likely need the Pro-M 92. If you go to a big blower (bigger than 3.0L) then you will likely need the Pro-M 117 MAF.

    The old saw about the high power applications need SD because Mass Air based systems can not provide the fueling is sort of crushed by the naturally aspirated F-! engines that produce more power from less than half your displacement and do it naturally aspirated — go figure. If SD was so much better, why would an F-1 team who has no real budget limitations settle for an inferior EFI system design?



    Quote Originally Posted by ITSTOCK View Post
    I played with the AE settings as you recommended and the lean spike appears to be, for the most part, gone, dumping a little extra fuel this time around.
    Good! Glad it helped.



    Quote Originally Posted by ITSTOCK View Post
    My track visit on Friday was a relative success, though it still seems like I'm down a ton of power. But 5-6 pounds less boost, way worse air, headlight in (yea, this is a stupid one, but my old 2.3 whipple combo it consistently added 1-2mph), and it went [email protected], very crappy track prep so mid 1.5 60's.
    Your engine is still not being properly fueled and until it is, it will behave in a confusing manner for you. Start by properly calibrating your MS3Pro and get a Pro-M 92 MAF from Pro-M Racing. Then try again. Things will begin to make a lot more sense.



    Quote Originally Posted by ITSTOCK View Post
    With the 7 gallon tank, icing immediately before the pass, but no pre ice routine, IAT's didn't get out of the 120's. This is with the EMP pump, 1" lines feeding through the 3/4 for the killer chiller and out of the completely stock intercooler, and still no heat exchanger. After the pass, the IAT's were back down to 100 or below before I got to the trailer. I'm impressed with how cool it runs.
    This is good and the way it should be. Even cooler would be better.

    If you wanted to stay with your Killer Chiller, you should remove the in cabin A/C from the system. Run a 3 gallon water reservoir in the front of the engine bay (use a dry sump 3 gal oil reservoir) and employ two pumps. One pump continually recirculates the water in the tank between the tank and the KC. Be sure to use anti-freeze because the water temps will drop significantly below freezing. Draw warmer water from the top of the tank and pump chilled water from the KC into the bottom of the tank. You should see reservoir temps drop about 10˚ below freezing, maybe more.

    Use a second pump to recirculate chilled water, drawn from the bottom of the reservoir to the IC under the blower. Take the now heated return water and dump it in the 3 gallon reservoir near the top (heat rises, cold falls). You will easily be able to get IAT2 temps down in the 70˚ to 80˚F range without the need to wrestle hot water out of and cold ice into your trunk mounted tank.



    Quote Originally Posted by ITSTOCK View Post
    I also picked up the new bullet yesterday, basic build is...
    10:1 std bore teksid, billet main caps. Manley hd I beam rods , new Manley crank with crank snout mod done and woodruff key milled out and a tool steel square key put in its place, diamond pistons ,.5 over stainless valves , bronze valve guides , custom grind bullet cams, arp 2000 everything , mmr billet chain guides tensioners all billet sprockets cloyes adjustable cam gears primary and secondary heavy duty chains over sized chain guide down pins, pac coyote valve springs, along with 1 7/8 kooks headers and full 3" exhaust. The crank support will go in with this, along with the new J2 intercooler, and I'm debating on moving up to the 3.0 whipple. The plan is to learn a little on my stock engine through the fall, then get the new engine in early winter and hit the dyno to be ready for the spring.
    An ethanol fueled engine should run a minimum of an 11:1 compression ratio, if you run very high boost (60+ psi). If you run 30 psi or less boost the engine should run a 13.5:1 compression ratio. The ethanol will absolutely love the compression and so will your engine. It will also be more responsive to tuning changes. Tuning an engine with a 10:1 compression ratio on E-85 is like tuning a TORO lawn mower — takes real big changes to see anything.

    What LSA and what centerline are the cams installed at? How much duration and lift? I have regularly heard of chain tensioner failures but the reports were always second or third hand. I have never heard of a chain tensioner failure from the guy who experienced it — which begs the question, if they are so rare why are we spending so much money to prevent such an unlikely occurrence?

    Crank supports will do little if anything to save your crank snout. Other than a custom billet crank the absolute best thing you can do for your crank is to double key the snout and stud it. TToC time again.

    Fix your ECU calibration, switch to a Mass Air Based fueling system and then go to the dyno to tune the engine. It is the short way home, to good power and good performance.


    Ed
    Last edited by eschaider; 10-25-2020 at 06:47 PM. Reason: Spelling & Grammar

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  6. #109
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    What are you referring to with properly setting up the MS3 for the A/F? I'm not following you on that. Also, I am not switching to MAF any time soon, it's staying speed density, so that's where I'm at with that part of the tuning. If I have it set wrong, I need to get that addressed quick.


    All of the calculators that I can find, including that one, indicate that my injectors are appropriately sized as well. Any reason why the duty cycle would be so high already?

    I'll look in to the killer chiller alternate setups, but it's probably staying as is for now. I checked the logs and it was actually down to the 80's by the time I got back to the pit. I originally had the under hood reservoir installed, but it was blowing water through the cap, so I removed it.

    I really need to figure out what you are referring to on calibrating the ECU, unless you are specifically referring to the SD vs MAF.

    None of the engine builders that I talked to, including L&M and CES, were anywhere near 13:1 compression, in fact, they were all at 10:1 recommended for my goals on E85. I'll get the exact specs for the cams. We are spending money to prevent the failure, though I suppose the money could have been spent towards a billet crank, again, something none of the builders recommended other than CES. The engine is done and going in as is though, no changes to it either way.
    Last edited by ITSTOCK; 10-25-2020 at 07:50 PM.

  7. #110

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    Quote Originally Posted by ITSTOCK View Post
    What are you referring to with properly setting up the MS3 for the A/F? I'm not following you on that. Also, I am not switching to MAF any time soon, it's staying speed density, so that's where I'm at with that part of the tuning. If I have it set wrong, I need to get that addressed quick.
    The proper set up I am referring to is informing the MS3Pro about the specific gravity for the fuel you are using and informing the MS3Pro about the correct stoichiometric point for the fuel you are using. Gasoline metrics are not the correct figures to use for either of the alcohols.



    Quote Originally Posted by ITSTOCK View Post
    All of the calculators that I can find, including that one, indicate that my injectors are appropriately sized as well. Any reason why the duty cycle would be so high already?
    This is a screen shot of Page 2 from the Fuel system calculator for a 4.6L displacement engine, a 3.4L blower, a 3" top pulley, a stock bottom pulley and a 7500 RPM redline using E-86 with a specific gravity of 0.831 and a slightly rich (for best power) AFR of 7.2:1.

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    Tha calculator indicates a 1591 cc injector is required at a duty cycle of 79%. When you are running a 1650cc injector, this does not give you any significant head room for a cold night or a good air day. I would feel uneasy with that injector and that engine setup. The important thing however is how you feel. If you feel OK then, by definition it is OK. In the end the guy who writes the checks for the broken pieces is always right — because he is writing the checks.



    Quote Originally Posted by ITSTOCK View Post
    I'll look in to the killer chiller alternate setups, but it's probably staying as is for now. I checked the logs and it was actually down to the 80's by the time I got back to the pit. I originally had the under hood reservoir installed, but it was blowing water through the cap, so I removed it.
    KC or trunk mounted ice reservoir in many ways is a matter of personal preference. As long as the draining and re icing between rounds is not an issue there may be no compelling reason to consider the alternatives. If you use the KC design I suggested, you will get the IC coolant below freezing by as much as perhaps 10˚F and it will produce IAT2 temps in the 75 to 85˚F range. To do that you will obviously need antifreeze in the coolant to keep it from freezing solid.



    Quote Originally Posted by ITSTOCK View Post
    I really need to figure out what you are referring to on calibrating the ECU, unless you are specifically referring to the SD vs MAF.
    It is exactly what I indicated above. Correct fuel specific gravity, correct fuel stoichiometric point and correct commanded target AFR or lambda. It is important to remember that when your ethanol mix changes so to does the specific gravity and also the stoich point. The variability based on Ethanol content is the reason for the flex fuel sensor in the fuel supply line. The sensor monitors in real time what the engine is getting for fuel and informs the ECU so it can make appropriate modifications to the tune for the new specific gravity and stoich points.



    Quote Originally Posted by ITSTOCK View Post
    None of the engine builders that I talked to, including L&M and CES, were anywhere near 13:1 compression, in fact, they were all at 10:1 recommended for my goals on E85. I'll get the exact specs for the cams. We are spending money to prevent the failure, though I suppose the money could have been spent towards a billet crank, again, something none of the builders recommended other than CES. The engine is done and going in as is though, no changes to it either way.
    If you are at a manifold pressure of 60+ psi then you should have a max c/r around 11:1. If you are at 30 psi or less then you should have a c/r of 13.5:1. The table below will help explain why;

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    Think of the ethanol critical point as its autoignition / detonation threshold. It occurs at 514˚K and 63 atmospheres. Lets convert the metrics to more familiar units. 514˚K is the same as 465˚F and 62 atmospheres is 914 psi. Lets change the psi number to something a little more useful. One BAR is one atmosphere or one compression ratio.

    Lets say you have a turbo engine with 60 psi of boost. 60 psi is actually y 74.7 psia (absolute). Divide by 14.5 to get BAR and the magic number is 5.15 BAR. Multiply that by 11:1 compression and you get an effective in chamber pressure of 56.7 BAR. Ethanol's critical point is 63 BAR which gives you a small but useful corridor of safety before autoignition or detonation occurs.

    Now lets do the same thing for a 30 psi intake manifold pressure and a 13.5:1 c/r. To the 30 psi you have to again add 14.7 which brings you to 44.7 psia. Divide 44.7 by 14.5 and you get 3.08 BAR. A 13.5:1 c/r with a 3 bar intake manifold pressure produces an effective in chamber pressure of 41.6 BAR — a country mile and two cow fields from autoignition!

    You are perfectly safe at a 13.5:1 c/r and 30 psi. People who get squirrely when you talk about 13.5:1 and the alcohols simply have limited experience with those fuels in maximum effort supercharged applications. I have built and raced blown alcohol engines for 50 years (which might be longer than you have been alive) and used that c/r for probably 48 of those 50 years, without any problems. Today there are multiple modmotors being raced on alcohol with that type of compression. This is what the piston looks like;

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    These days that piston is an off the shelf item from Gibtec Pistons. You will give up significant power by using a 10:1 c/r. Again, this is a matter of preference for the guy who writes the checks. Of course that could change if you end up racing one of those other guys with the high compression numbers.

    The best protection from broken crank snouts is a double keyed billet crank with a 1.400" diameter snout and a 5.185" long ARP 234-2504 16mm bolt in the snout torqued to 250 ft/lbs. The second best protection is a double keyed stock crank with a 9/16" stud torqued to 180 ft/lbs. A stock crank without a stud or double keyways and a big blower with a manual transmission is a crank snout failure waiting to happen.


    Ed
    Last edited by eschaider; 10-26-2020 at 07:57 PM. Reason: Fixed broken pic link

  8. #111

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    Steve,

    This should help a bit. BTW I was confusing the MS3Pro with a competitor's EFI system, ignore my remarks about specific gravity.

    That said you still have to manage the stoich point and the table switching parameters for dual fuel operation, if you choose to use a flex fuel sensor (recommended)

    Your fuel stoich point will be in the General Settings screen, see below. Before clicking the Required Fuel button, make sure you complete any changes necessary elsewhere on this page. The Required Fuel button uses this data in its calculations.

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    Click on the Required Fuel button at the top left of the window. It will open the Required Fuel Calculator. This is where you specify the stoichiometric AFR for the fuel you are running along with the engine size, number of cylinders and injector size you are using. My comments about the specific gravity of the fuel do not apply to the MS3Pro ECU's so you do not need to worry about that item, The Required Fuel Calculator will do the heavy lifting to determine the correct Global Fuel Constant for your engine configuration. The Global Fuel Constant is essentially the injector pulse width at a 100% Ve.

    Stoich Point Data Entry

    There are multiple points in the tuning software you need to enter the correct stoich point for your fuel. The easiest way to find them is to open the User Manual and do a search on stoichiometric, see screen below,

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    The search will turn up a total of 12 different locations where the stoich point of your fuel is used. Chase each one down and make sure the correct stoich point is being used.

    At that point you are good to go. Obvious caveat make sure things like your base fuel system pressure is set properly in the EFI Analytics software.



    Ed
    Last edited by eschaider; 10-26-2020 at 04:37 PM. Reason: Fixed broken pic link

  9. #112
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    Ed,

    I have most of that configured for the fuel, but am running on the "gas" scale. The tuners that I have talked to said to either keep it in lambda all around, or just run the gas scale as that is what I'm familiar with. However, I'll look more in to the 12 different locations as I only changed settings in 3 of them.

    As of right now, and without a dyno it's tough to say, but I do believe that my 7000 rpm shift point is simply too high for stock heads/cams. Apparently all of the dyno shops around me no longer offer rental time, so it's going to head back to the track to try different shift points to improve. The other part of this is the suspension and 1.5 60's aren't going to cut it (I did 1.39 on 6 speed, 1.5's are absolutely awful). My goal is 9.2's before the end of the season, still at full weight street car/stock long block.

    Most importantly, I am hoping you can offer more insight in to the crank. The crank in the new engine that will be going in is studded/keyed, and I planned on doing the crank support. I understand that there are 2 different issues, the first shearing of the pulley, and the second the breaking of the crank. Wouldn't the crank support help with the breaking issue?


    Since this is an MS3 thread, I also figured that I would throw in that this engine starts up insanely quick with the MS3/E85 throughout all temp changes so far, from 80's down to the 40's.
    Last edited by ITSTOCK; 10-29-2020 at 03:59 PM.

  10. #113

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    Steve,

    I am going to give your portion of this thread a life of its own because, while about a car with an MS3Pro, it is an excellent thread on the implementation of it in your car and it deserves its own identity. Normally I would put it into the Turbo section because you are after all turbo car but I can leave it in the 03/04 Cobra forum if you want. Let me know and I will place it where you request.


    Ed
    Last edited by eschaider; 10-31-2020 at 04:05 AM. Reason: Spelling & Grammar

  11. #114

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    Ed
    I believe he is running a Whipple twin-screw! Either a 2.3L or a 3.4L, I would have to go back and read through it all to be certain!

  12. #115
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    Correct, it's a 3.4 crusher for now, new engine will have the 3.0. Not going turbo on this platform!
    Last edited by ITSTOCK; 10-30-2020 at 03:00 PM.

  13. #116

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    You are right Ken, my bad!

    Apologies for the mischaracterization, Steve. That said, you are still entitled to your own thread, everything you have added to the forum is valuable for all the guys that will come after you!


    Ed


    p.s. I reread the entire series of posts Steve, from post 94 onward and they do belong in the MS3Pro thread so I am not going to move them. They add considerable insight for others who might be facing similar issues. They are definitely in the right thread.
    Last edited by eschaider; 10-31-2020 at 04:07 AM. Reason: Added Postscript

  14. #117

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    Quote Originally Posted by eschaider View Post
    You are right Ken, my bad!

    Apologies for the mischaracterization, Steve. That said, you are still entitled to your own thread, everything you have added to the forum is valuable for all the guys that will come after you!


    Ed
    Exactly! Me included as I will have a built motor 11:1 compression with ported heads and a Whipple 3.0 on E85 with my MS3Pro I have sitting in here waiting on me

    Ken

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