Big Injectors for Corn - Page 2

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  1. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by 03yllwcobra View Post
    I run the ID1700X injectors, I was told they would be good to around 1300whp. I had ID2000 but they were locked up by the E85

    Some of the earlier 2xxx cc (and other large) injectors were not compatible with the ethanol and methanol fuels, Nick. Virtually all of our large cc injectors come from the LNG space and did not need to be "alcohol protected" for LNG operation so the manufacturers did not. As it became apparent the injectors had found a new home with the alcohol fueled engines, the injector manufacturers began the transition to alcohol safe injectors that wouldn't "lock up". Sadly for those of us who bought early, we are back in the pickle barrel for another set of injectors that are alcohol safe.

    BTW here is a handy little fact. To make 100 hp (on gasoline) it takes 10 pounds of air per minute. This assumes average level of parasitic losses in the engine. I'll do a little on what average looks like in a separate post later. If you go into the TToC and download Black2003Cobra's 4 Stroke Airflow Rev 1.xls model it will help you calculate the Mass Air Flow for your engine at a given rpm and boost. The flow will be in lbs per minute.

    Lets take a 4.6L engine at 20 psi boost and 7000 rpm. The table tells us the engine processes 89.6lbs of air per minute. We already know that 100 HP requires 10 lbs or air per minute. Sooo, we divide 89.6 lbs/minute by 10 and get 8.96 units of 100 hp each or 896 HP. That 896 number is before parasitic loss. Throw away 85 Hp to run a blower and you are down to 811. Give up ~15% for drive train losses and you are at 689 HP at the tire, with detonation free gasoline. My, my. my!

    Interesting noodling toys ...



    Ed

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  3. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by badcobra View Post
    ID2000, FIC 2150 and literally all the 2100cc injectors except the siemens deka 220's are all re-badged Bosch 210's. I run Bosch 210's and they idle and drive great, but in all reality they work best with a standalone computer. This is where I tell people to spend the money on the standalone vs the big money ID injectors. It's much better money spent when you start approaching and eclipsing 4 digit power levels.

    Thanks for weighing in, Tony. First hand user experiences are always valuable insights.


    Ed
    Last edited by eschaider; 11-21-2019 at 08:23 PM. Reason: Spelling and Grammar

  4. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by GodStang View Post
    Ya I went to the dyno to get an idea on what I had to work with and I was turned away because they knew my 80s would fail.

    Ed thank you for repeating all the info you gave in the other thread back to this one for future people researching. Now that I am safe using 2000cc size injectors. Wanting to buy my last set having had 5 sets on this car already which ones are all good:

    ID 2000 for $2K
    FIC 2150 for $1600 ($150 off next week)
    Denso FIC 2000 for $1200

    I have PTFE lines and I can swap out O-rings. I am looking hard at the FIC 2150 just not sure if they can handle the E85 and the C90 or what ever that new fangle fuel is?
    Increasingly today these types of purchases are trending toward commodity purchases, Josh. The difference between the real cost of goods to the manufacturer for a 39lb injector or a 2xxlb injector are vanishingly small, which is why we find the kinds of pricing disparity we see in the market today.

    My suggestion would be to buy the least expensive tomato that comes with a tomato characterization document that mimics Ford's tomato characterization. If we use that rule of thumb, the FIC 2000's are the hands down winner! Take the monies you save and take the wife out. It does wonders for peace and domestic tranquility

    BTW the FIC characterization sheet looks very Ford like. I attached one for grins.



    Ed
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    Last edited by eschaider; 11-21-2019 at 07:55 PM. Reason: Spelling and Grammar

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  6. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by GodStang View Post
    Another question then. Is 900rw on a turbo the same as 900rw on a big twin screw? We are using HP to spin that big boy. Do calculations come out the same?
    They don't, Josh because like you indicated the blower draws power off the crank to spin it. That said the auto trans also absorbs power (on the dyno) that the manual trans does not. Each moves in a direction to offset the other. I have never measured the difference but I suspect it would be a small difference in favor of the turbo engine / auto trans combo notwithstanding — however, no data to argue the point conclusively just intuition.



    Ed

  7. #20
    Senior Member Array badcobra's Avatar
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    One thing I want to caution with the Bosch 210s is there is a tremendous amount of fakes on the market. You will see wildly varying prices. Myself and some friends found a seller on ebay that sells, true and genuine Bosch 210's. They are shipped from Latvia which is right next to Germany where they are manufactured. They also come in genuine, individual sealed Bosch boxes with the codes on them that can be scanned on Bosch's website to ensure they are genuine. They are not the only source for genuine, but we have verified these as true with Bosch USA. Along with the injectors, you need the spacers and proper pigtails as they have a denso connector.

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/BOSCH-Gas-P...1/162512031273

  8. #21

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    Several of the guys have bought individual Bosch and Seimens injectors from legitimate dealers in sealed boxes. The flow variances across the group of injectors is frequently unacceptably high.

    One of the value adds that a place like FIC (or similar resellers bring) is their flow testing and matching of the injectors. The OEM injectors do not have low variances injector to injector for flow performance. One of the significant value adds the reseller provides is the flowing and matching of the injectors so their flow characteristics injector to injector are very similar. Resellers can not change the flow of an individual injector but they can martch groups of injectors with similar flow rates and then sell them as such in 4, 6 or 8 injector kits.

    When we buy injectors sealed in a single box from the manufacturer, the flow variance across the group we purchase can be surprisingly greater than we would like for a high performance supercharged application like our engines. That flow matching, the time effort and equipment necessary to do the job have a value and that is usually worth a tick up in price for the units.


    Ed
    Last edited by eschaider; 11-21-2019 at 09:09 PM. Reason: Spelling and Grammar

  9. #22
    Senior Member Array badcobra's Avatar
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    I agree with that, but I do not believe ID's flow matching should add $1500 to a set of injectors or even $1000. There are many vendors that sell flow matched sets for a small markup like Carter Motorsports and others. I will share that I sent my injectors out for cleaning after the first season of use and they came back very very close to each other in performance and I have not had any issues with them. Overall value has been outstanding.

  10. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by badcobra View Post
    I agree with that, but I do not believe ID's flow matching should add $1500 to a set of injectors or even $1000. There are many vendors that sell flow matched sets for a small markup like Carter Motorsports and others. I will share that I sent my injectors out for cleaning after the first season of use and they came back very very close to each other in performance and I have not had any issues with them. Overall value has been outstanding.


    We are in the same pew, in the same Church on this, Tony. ID has consistently provided very high quality product, service and tech but the premium they have attached to their offering is IMO too dear. The beauty of a free market enterprise system is the freedom it provides other businesses to come in under the pricing umbrella that the high price leader creates and offer competitive product and service at pricing below the umbrella price. Gotta love the Free Market Model.


    Ed

  11. #24

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    i have bought 3 sets of these injectors https://turbo4less.com/product/bosch...l-application/
    these are a longer version with ev1 connector, they are physically the same size as the ford "mid length" injector. if you use the id2150 plug in data for ms3 it is nearly spot on. idle quality is hugely increased over the #160 injector they replaced on my race car, unfortunately i hit 95%dc at 39psi base and will need to up the pressure and pump voltage to go any higher in power

  12. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by ashford View Post
    i have bought 3 sets of these injectors https://turbo4less.com/product/bosch...l-application/
    these are a longer version with ev1 connector, they are physically the same size as the ford "mid length" injector. if you use the id2150 plug in data for ms3 it is nearly spot on. idle quality is hugely increased over the #160 injector they replaced on my race car, unfortunately i hit 95%dc at 39psi base and will need to up the pressure and pump voltage to go any higher in power

    Thanks for that link Ashford! Those guys have some excellent deals on the components they sell. Josh, if you are reading this these injectors are bit less expensive that the low cost ones you had found.

    The Turbo4Less site has many of their injector offerings in both USCAR (EV6) and also the earlier Jetronic / Minitimer (EV1) connectors. Make sure you know which connector you need or you will end up spending another $50 or so for adapters.

    The Jetronic / Minitimer EV1 connector looks like this;

    Name:  EV-1 Minitimer.jpg
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    The USCAR EV6 connector looks like this;

    Name:  EV-6 USCAR.jpg
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    Take a few minutes to verify which connector your harness needs and then order the corresponding injectors.


    Great source you found there Ashford. Thanks for sharing.


    Ed

  13. #26
    Senior Member Array GodStang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ashford View Post
    i have bought 3 sets of these injectors https://turbo4less.com/product/bosch...l-application/
    these are a longer version with ev1 connector, they are physically the same size as the ford "mid length" injector. if you use the id2150 plug in data for ms3 it is nearly spot on. idle quality is hugely increased over the #160 injector they replaced on my race car, unfortunately i hit 95%dc at 39psi base and will need to up the pressure and pump voltage to go any higher in power
    Thanks for the info. The guy I watch Megasquirt videos from “Sloppy Mechanic” also recommends these: https://sites.google.com/site/sloppy...ation/210bosch

    What are your guys thoughts on not being flow tested/Matched?

  14. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by GodStang View Post
    What are your guys thoughts on not being flow tested/Matched?
    The way I looked at it when I was choosing how much I wanted to spend was that these little suckers are the lifeblood of keeping each cylinder cool and in sync with all the other cylinders. If one was leaner than the rest how would I know w/o running thermal couples in each cylinder. Along with this issue not all intake runners flow the same amount so add a leaner injector with a intake runner that flows more air and there could be a bad situation just waiting to happen. So I really wanted a batch of flowed and match injectors for my car. IMO, this isn't something that should be skipped in a performance build.

    ks

  15. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by GodStang View Post
    Thanks for the info. The guy I watch Megasquirt videos from “Sloppy Mechanic” also recommends these: https://sites.google.com/site/sloppy...ation/210bosch

    What are your guys thoughts on not being flow tested/Matched?

    If you elect to go with injectors that are not flow matched, I would at least get them flow tested so you know if you have any weak horses, Josh. If they all come in close you're good to go. If they don't and you bought at the low end of the pricing scale buy two or three additional injectors and have them flowed. Pick the ones that most closely duplicate your others to replace the bad boys.

    If you go this way, just flow testing not flow matching, it tends to be about $100 maybe less depending on who you use and where they are. If your discover the variance on the injector flow is approximating between 5% and 10% then I would tune the engine a bit more conservatively. You don't want to walk up to the edge of the tuning cliff and have the fueling ground fall out from underneath you — so to speak. If you have a couple in the 10% or nearly 10%variance sand box, I would buy a couple more to see if I could close up that variance gap.


    Ed

  16. #29
    Senior Member Array GodStang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eschaider View Post
    If you elect to go with injectors that are not flow matched, I would at least get them flow tested so you know if you have any weak horses, Josh. If they all come in close you're good to go. If they don't and you bought at the low end of the pricing scale buy two or three additional injectors and have them flowed. Pick the ones that most closely duplicate your others to replace the bad boys.

    If you go this way, just flow testing not flow matching, it tends to be about $100 maybe less depending on who you use and where they are. If your discover the variance on the injector flow is approximating between 5% and 10% then I would tune the engine a bit more conservatively. You don't want to walk up to the edge of the tuning cliff and have the fueling ground fall out from underneath you — so to speak. If you have a couple in the 10% or nearly 10%variance sand box, I would buy a couple more to see if I could close up that variance gap.


    Ed

    Ok our local shop can flow test 8 of them for $73.50. Just got to decide do I want to start with 8 and hope for best or start with 10 and sell two that are farthest out hoping they will fall in the range.

  17. #30

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    Start with 10 no more than 12, Josh. Save the duplicate shipping (if there is any) and eliminate the wait time if it turns out you do need to replace any weak injectors. It is the smart way to approach the issue.


    Ed

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