Manley 300M Pro Series I Beam Connecting Rods - Page 2

+ Reply to Thread
Page 2 of 2 First 12
Results 16 to 30 of 30
  1. #16

    Default

    Your point about the difficulty in removing pricing from the parts selection process is well made, Robert. Modular engine builders are fortunate to have a relatively wide range of very good component selections in the connecting rod category. With a rich field of superior product selections, the most important consideration becomes what you want and feel good about using. After that, the remainder of any discussion is simply rhetorical noise and artifact. My prediction is that you will be very happy with your selection.



    Ed

  2. Remove Advertisements
    ModularFords.com
    Advertisements
     

  3. #17
    Senior Member Array cobraracer46's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Blue state
    Posts
    373

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by eschaider View Post
    I don't think anyone has critically reviewed your rods as inferior, Jan. If you like them that is excellent and it is all that is required for your purchase to be right for you. That however does not mean it is necessarily the best pick for everyone else. Your rods came to you at a fire sale price. It is significant that you did not previously buy them at full retail price. The obvious implication is that you either did not think they warranted the price or your budget did not provide for that type of component purchase — which goes to my perfect stereo story.

    I think it is great that you found a deal on a nice set of rods. That does not necessarily mean that the same set of rods, at their normal retail price point, would be a good choice for everyone else. In fact when you could have bought them at full retail, you chose not to. That speaks volumes to your unspoken but very real value assessment of the product.



    Ed
    I'll agree with you that one perfect rod that covers every situation simply does not exist. For example, In the Australian Super car series, the majority of the teams use a Carrillo H beam rod that is lighter than the Manley 300M I beam rod I will be using in my engine. However, the engine builder that supplies the majority of the supercar filed will milage out those Carrillo rods at 5K intervals thus trading longevity for lower reciprocating weight and faster engine response and this approach does not cause problems because the rods are regularly replaced. In My case, I can't afford to "milage out" major engine components like rods so from the beginning, my plan was to use the strongest rod possible and thus not worry about an engine failure later on. Now, I will say that in terms of the strongest "put it in there and forget about it" 4.6 Ford mod motor rod without having to worry about the price(or too crazy to care) is the Manley 300M I beam.

    Of corse cost is a consideration for most people and if that's case, then a Manley 4340 I beam rod or the Turbo Tuff H beams paired with the ARP 2000 bolts would be a better choice. I'm not immune to cost considerations either and while it would be nice to use a Bryant billet crank, the factory forged unit will work fine, so I'll spend my money elsewhere.

    As for not buying the 300M I beam rods with the ARP 625+ bolt optional the full retail price, I thought that the Manley 300M I beam rods were worth the cost and I decided a while back that I would be using that rod no matter what. But , I also knew that by the end of the year, the warehouse where I buy most of my go fast Mustang hardware from would offer some really good deals and they did so I bought a set.

  4. #18

    Default

    All good rational reasons and reasoning, Jan. The most important litmus test though is, are you happy with the product and decision. To the extent I can assess that, I would have to say you are, so — that makes the product and purchase as right as is possible for you. I am certain (as I know you are also) that those rods will perform up to your expectations and then some.


    Ed

  5. Remove Advertisements
    ModularFords.com
    Advertisements
     

  6. #19
    Junior Member Array saltfever's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    NorCal
    Posts
    29

    Default

    This thread about the rods has been very interesting. But what is SCARY is that motor with the blown out bottom end! It looks like both rod alloys are strong enough and the weak link is the block. I wish I knew more about it. What caused the failure, what HP, what oil pressure, what RPM, oh so many questions?

    Since piston speed is a function of stroke and rpm I don’t think you can generalize a safe RPM limit since shorter strokes vs longer strokes generate less stress.

  7. #20

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by saltfever View Post
    This thread about the rods has been very interesting. But what is SCARY is that motor with the blown out bottom end! It looks like both rod alloys are strong enough and the weak link is the block. I wish I knew more about it. What caused the failure, what HP, what oil pressure, what RPM, oh so many questions?
    That engine was a maximum effort race engine running methanol, very high compression, max effort race cams and 30 psi (or thereabouts) of boost along with an aggressive tune. There was also a contributory whoops. What you are looking at is an ultimate strength failure in a major engine component, in this instance, the block. It is improbable, but not impossible, that you would experience a similar failure. One of severa, both significant and important, events was the way the rods handled the failure, their condition and their reusability.

    Quote Originally Posted by saltfever View Post
    Since piston speed is a function of stroke and rpm I don’t think you can generalize a safe RPM limit since shorter strokes vs longer strokes generate less stress.
    If you ask ARP to evaluate your rod bolt choices they will inquire about everything you have already identified and a few more variables prior to providing their opinion. As a general rule of thumb if your maximum engine speed is at 8500 rpm or below, you use fairly typical pistons with a quality rod selection then an ARP 2000 bolt will perform admirably in your engine. If your maximum engine speed is above 8500 rpm you ought to be looking at 7/16" fasteners made from ARP 2000 steel.

    If your budget will allow the stress, ARP offers Custom Age 625+ steel rod bolts through normal distribution channels like Jegs and Summit but the fasteners come at elevated prices meaning between $500 to $570 for a set, depending on whether they are ⅜ or 7/16 and whose rods they are for. That said, the 625+ bolts are as much better than the 2000 bolts than the 2000 bolts are better than the 8740 bolts.

    Buy adequacy don't buy overkill.



    Ed

  8. #21
    Senior Member Array cobraracer46's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Blue state
    Posts
    373

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by saltfever View Post
    But what is SCARY is that motor with the blown out bottom end! It looks like both rod alloys are strong enough and the weak link is the block. I wish I knew more about it. What caused the failure, what HP, what oil pressure, what RPM, oh so many questions?
    I can't say for sure what caused the main webbing failure in that mod motor block, but I suspect that casting flash, rough edges and surface irregularities allowed cracks to form that eventually led to a main web failure.

    Accufab Racing has ben able to keep Teksid blocks together past 3000HP and the trick they use to make it possible is hours of labor spent smoothing out and removing casting flash from the entire Teksid cylinder block. Another trick employed by Accufab to keep the teksid block alive under extreme abuse is the use of custom oversize ARP side main bolts that are torqued to higher values that eliminate main cap fretting issues.


    You can see in the photo below just how rough the Teksid casting is in the main web area and its critical for reliability in highly stressed applications that this surface is smoothed out and debarred and all sharp edges are smoothed out as well. Be prepared to spend hours with a rotary tool "jeweling " the block in order to complete this step.

    Last edited by cobraracer46; 02-23-2020 at 01:06 PM.

  9. #22
    Senior Member Array cobraracer46's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Blue state
    Posts
    373

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by eschaider View Post
    Buy adequacy don't buy overkill.



    Ed

    I know that I will eventually subject my Teksid MOD motor to 30 PSI of boost and 7000 RPM shifts so in considering various conneting rod and rod bolt options from Manley, I gladly went with the overkill route(300M I Beam 7/16 ARP 625 + bolts) for my future engine build. In my book, overkill is worth it as it gives me extra insurance and piece of mind that my engine will never ever bend, break a rod or fail a rod bolt.

  10. #23

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cobraracer46 View Post
    I can't say for sure what caused the main webbing failure in that mod motor block, but I suspect that casting flash, rough edges and surface irregularities allowed cracks to form that eventually led to a main web failure.

    Accufab Racing has ben able to keep Teksid blocks together past 3000HP and the trick they use to make it possible is hours of labor spent smoothing out and removing casting flash from the entire Teksid cylinder block. Another trick employed by Accufab to keep the teksid block alive under extreme abuse is the use of custom oversize ARP side main bolts that are torqued to higher values that eliminate main cap fretting issues.

    I am familiar with John's larger side bolts and in fact have used them in the past. In a builds since then I still use the larger side bolt upgrade, although I did not use John's bolts. Instead I use off the shelf ARP fasteners with 1" OD thick washers. John actually took the initiative to have ARP fabricate custom fasteners for him that incorporate the washer into the bolt head like the OEM fasteners. John's fasteners are exceptional, to die for, pieces from a fit, finish and suitability standpoint. I believe I also paid about $20 each for them plus tax and shipping. The std ARP fastener while not incorporating a built in washer is still.a very good solution and came in below $5 a fastener with washers.



    Quote Originally Posted by cobraracer46 View Post
    You can see in the photo below just how rough the Teksid casting is in the main web area and its critical for reliability in highly stressed applications that this surface is smoothed out and debarred and all sharp edges are smoothed out as well. Be prepared to spend hours with a rotary tool "jeweling " the block in order to complete this step.
    The removal of casting flash and casting imperfections should be a standard procedure if you are building one of these engines. You need to look everywhere including the main oil galley because Ford chose to cast the galley and not machine it's ID. Casting flash that is allowed to remain in the block can either break free during operation and then get drawn into somewhere it does not belong or it can presage the beginnings of a cracking type failure. It should be standard build procedure to brush your block's teeth and comb it's hair — so to speak.

    The failure that knocked out the mains in that block was not a casting flaw it was another type of whoops that the typical Modmotor builder will not likely experience because his engine is not built or operated the way that particular engine was. In the FWIW bucket the replacement engine was built the same but without the whoops and performed without incident. For the inquiring minds the whoops was not a build decision / modification it was a tuning whoops at a high power level.


    Ed
    Last edited by eschaider; 02-23-2020 at 08:26 PM. Reason: Spelling and Grammar

  11. #24

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cobraracer46 View Post
    I know that I will eventually subject my Teksid MOD motor to 30 PSI of boost and 7000 RPM shifts so in considering various conneting rod and rod bolt options from Manley, I gladly went with the overkill route(300M I Beam 7/16 ARP 625 + bolts) for my future engine build. In my book, overkill is worth it as it gives me extra insurance and piece of mind that my engine will never ever bend, break a rod or fail a rod bolt.

    While your intentions are good, Jan, it is noteworthy that you did not buy the components at the normal retail price point. In fact you indicate you put off your purchase until a reduced price opportunity presented itself.— which is what most of us do, if possible.

    So the admonition is still true, buy adequacy do not buy overkill. The only exception I would consider to the general rule is if the parts became available at sufficient discount to their normal retail price point that the buy would not delay the purchase of other componentry necessary to the build.


    Ed

  12. #25
    Junior Member Array saltfever's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    NorCal
    Posts
    29

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by eschaider View Post
    Buy adequacy don't buy overkill.Ed
    That is precisely my point, Ed. Doesn't make much sense building a rotating assembly suitable for 1,800 HP when the block fails at 900 HP. Safety factor is important in all things but one also considers cost and risk when setting the SF number. (numbers are only for illustrative purposes to clarify a point).

    I am a complete newbie to the mod stuff and while I am no stranger to rotating assemblies I don't have a clue as to the strength of the Teksid. I have heard stories of 1,200 HP, 2,000 HP and now Cobra mentions John's block at 3,000 HP. Even Shawn Hyland mentioned 1,200 HP in his book years ago but then he promptly designed an aftermarket "improved" bullet suitable for 2,000 hp! All these horsepower numbers sound interesting and then you show me a picture with the entire bottom end blown out! Quite honestly, I consider some of these HP numbers suspect until I can actually see the motor in question. I have no clue as to how they are put together and more importantly, the length of their millisecond lifespan!

    BTW, I love de-buring. Always have, always will. It is one of my favorite pastimes working on a block and parts. maybe I'm
    Last edited by saltfever; 02-23-2020 at 05:29 PM.

  13. #26
    Junior Member Array saltfever's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    NorCal
    Posts
    29

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by eschaider View Post
    Here is a pic of the rods and pistons immediately after they came out of the engine;
    Attachment 170921Ed
    In all my years picking up parts off the asphalt or assemblies covered with salt, I have never seen such a clean, unscathed outcome. If it is a pic you received, then I call bs. If it is something you can vouch for then I suggest it is not a statement on the integrity of the rotating assembly but rather, it was an incredibly unique, once-in-a-lifetime, failure environment. Something provided a low velocity, no rpm, soft landing.

  14. #27

    Default

    The deburring time and effort is well spent, Kirk. If you have not yet selected a block you might want to look into what Ford ended up calling the Aluminator block. The block was originally used to replace the WAP blocks in the Ford Explorer series in 2006 in an attempt to mitigate block related warranty issues.

    The block can be found in the following production vehicles:

    They were OEM in the '05-'10 3V GT.
    Other production vehicles using the Aluminator block include:
    • 2005 — 2009 Ford Mustang, 300 hp and 320 lb•ft
    • 2006 — and later Ford Explorer, 292 hp and 300 lb•ft
    • 2007— and later Ford Explorer Sport Trac, 292 hp and 300 lb•ft
    • 2009 and later Ford F-Series, 292 hp and 320 lb•ft
    • 2010 Ford Mustang, 315 hp and 325 lb•ft

    An internal Ford engineering note made reference to the block strength and integrity as follows;

    "The foundation of these engines is the 4.6L engine block used in the '05-to-present Mustang GT. Thanks to a technology partnership with Cosworth, this new block features strength unmatched by any previous production 4.6L aluminum block. The employment of zircon sand for the casting molds, a chilled bulkhead cooling process, as well as a proprietary method of pouring the aluminum results in a denser block with better alignment in the aluminum's grain.

    The casting also features increased main web thickness and round main cap windows to alleviate stress cracks often found with rectangular windows. The main caps are standard six-bolt but are now ball-burnished for greater strength. In production testing, the new block more than doubled the duty cycles of other aluminum 4.6L blocks." (emphasis added)


    Ford added 5 lbs of aluminum to the Aluminator block casting over what was used in the Teksid casting. 5 lbs of additional aluminum in an 85 lb block is a non trivial increase in mass and strength.

    If you have not already spent monies on a Teksid the Aluminator choice would be worth trying to pull off.


    Ed

  15. #28

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by saltfever View Post
    In all my years picking up parts off the asphalt or assemblies covered with salt, I have never seen such a clean, unscathed outcome. If it is a pic you received, then I call bs. If it is something you can vouch for then I suggest it is not a statement on the integrity of the rotating assembly but rather, it was an incredibly unique, once-in-a-lifetime, failure environment. Something provided a low velocity, no rpm, soft landing.

    These are pieces I saw, picked up and viewed in similar amazement after engine disassembly. The failure did not happen as a low velocity no rpm soft landing. It happened on a dyno under wide open throttle at around 6000 rpm or so and climbing. Don't forget they were still in the engine attached to the crank (so were the main webs). They were not blown out of the engine onto the ground.


    Ed

  16. #29
    Junior Member Array saltfever's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    NorCal
    Posts
    29

    Default

    Thanks for the further explanation, Ed. I was kind of thinking it could only happen in a dyno environment. About the only place the rotating mass is already coupled to a self-actualizing brake. If anything was to happen the brake could be effective, assuming it was still attached! Compared to in-vehicle dynamics with 1,000's of lbs of inertia keeping things rolling along. (again, if still attached!)

  17. #30
    Junior Member Array saltfever's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    NorCal
    Posts
    29

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by eschaider View Post
    They were OEM in the '05-'10 3V GT.
    Other production vehicles using the Aluminator block include:
    • 2005 — 2009 Ford Mustang, 300 hp and 320 lb•ft
    • 2006 — and later Ford Explorer, 292 hp and 300 lb•ft
    • 2007— and later Ford Explorer Sport Trac, 292 hp and 300 lb•ft
    • 2009 and later Ford F-Series, 292 hp and 320 lb•ft
    • 2010 Ford Mustang, 315 hp and 325 lb•ft
    Ed
    GREAT list, Ed and many thanks! All this time I thought I could go find a Lincoln Navigator and pick up a cheap Aluminator. I have a lot to learn. I knew the aluminator was a superior block but had zero details about it, or its availability.

    Unfortunately, I have 3 Teksid blocks. Well... maybe not "unfortunately" because I'm happy with what I have. I couldn't believe one could find such a nice 4 valve DOHC for such a low cost! From what I see the blocks will handle my (less than 1,000) horsepower goals just fine for now. Please enlighten me if you see problems ahead.

    The world (and Ford) moved on from the Teksid quite quickly resulting in a good supply of available motors. The downside is the dearth of an SBC-like aftermarket parts community. But for fabricator like me that can be a plus.

    BTW: Many thanks for mentioning the Mahovitz (sp?) side bolts . . . never heard of them. I was planning on ARP hardware, couple of MMR parts, and maybe a few specialty items as I learn more. The fun part is weighing what I will make myself (like main caps) and what I will buy because of superior product development I can't do or I don't want to invest the time in. As you may have guessed, race only, no street.

  18. Remove Advertisements
    ModularFords.com
    Advertisements
     

+ Reply to Thread
Page 2 of 2 First 12