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02-05-2020, 01:00 PM #16
Your point about the difficulty in removing pricing from the parts selection process is well made, Robert. Modular engine builders are fortunate to have a relatively wide range of very good component selections in the connecting rod category. With a rich field of superior product selections, the most important consideration becomes what you want and feel good about using. After that, the remainder of any discussion is simply rhetorical noise and artifact. My prediction is that you will be very happy with your selection.
02-05-2020, 02:13 PM #17
Of corse cost is a consideration for most people and if that's case, then a Manley 4340 I beam rod or the Turbo Tuff H beams paired with the ARP 2000 bolts would be a better choice. I'm not immune to cost considerations either and while it would be nice to use a Bryant billet crank, the factory forged unit will work fine, so I'll spend my money elsewhere.
As for not buying the 300M I beam rods with the ARP 625+ bolt optional the full retail price, I thought that the Manley 300M I beam rods were worth the cost and I decided a while back that I would be using that rod no matter what. But , I also knew that by the end of the year, the warehouse where I buy most of my go fast Mustang hardware from would offer some really good deals and they did so I bought a set.
02-05-2020, 06:20 PM #18
All good rational reasons and reasoning, Jan. The most important litmus test though is, are you happy with the product and decision. To the extent I can assess that, I would have to say you are, so — that makes the product and purchase as right as is possible for you. I am certain (as I know you are also) that those rods will perform up to your expectations and then some.
02-23-2020, 03:21 AM #19
This thread about the rods has been very interesting. But what is SCARY is that motor with the blown out bottom end! It looks like both rod alloys are strong enough and the weak link is the block. I wish I knew more about it. What caused the failure, what HP, what oil pressure, what RPM, oh so many questions?
Since piston speed is a function of stroke and rpm I don’t think you can generalize a safe RPM limit since shorter strokes vs longer strokes generate less stress.
02-23-2020, 12:01 PM #20
If your budget will allow the stress, ARP offers Custom Age 625+ steel rod bolts through normal distribution channels like Jegs and Summit but the fasteners come at elevated prices meaning between $500 to $570 for a set, depending on whether they are ⅜ or 7/16 and whose rods they are for. That said, the 625+ bolts are as much better than the 2000 bolts than the 2000 bolts are better than the 8740 bolts.
Buy adequacy don't buy overkill.
02-23-2020, 12:59 PM #21
Accufab Racing has ben able to keep Teksid blocks together past 3000HP and the trick they use to make it possible is hours of labor spent smoothing out and removing casting flash from the entire Teksid cylinder block. Another trick employed by Accufab to keep the teksid block alive under extreme abuse is the use of custom oversize ARP side main bolts that are torqued to higher values that eliminate main cap fretting issues.
You can see in the photo below just how rough the Teksid casting is in the main web area and its critical for reliability in highly stressed applications that this surface is smoothed out and debarred and all sharp edges are smoothed out as well. Be prepared to spend hours with a rotary tool "jeweling " the block in order to complete this step.
Last edited by cobraracer46; 02-23-2020 at 01:06 PM.
02-23-2020, 01:25 PM #22
I know that I will eventually subject my Teksid MOD motor to 30 PSI of boost and 7000 RPM shifts so in considering various conneting rod and rod bolt options from Manley, I gladly went with the overkill route(300M I Beam 7/16 ARP 625 + bolts) for my future engine build. In my book, overkill is worth it as it gives me extra insurance and piece of mind that my engine will never ever bend, break a rod or fail a rod bolt.
02-23-2020, 04:24 PM #23
I am familiar with John's larger side bolts and in fact have used them in the past. In a builds since then I still use the larger side bolt upgrade, although I did not use John's bolts. Instead I use off the shelf ARP fasteners with 1" OD thick washers. John actually took the initiative to have ARP fabricate custom fasteners for him that incorporate the washer into the bolt head like the OEM fasteners. John's fasteners are exceptional, to die for, pieces from a fit, finish and suitability standpoint. I believe I also paid about $20 each for them plus tax and shipping. The std ARP fastener while not incorporating a built in washer is still.a very good solution and came in below $5 a fastener with washers.
The failure that knocked out the mains in that block was not a casting flaw it was another type of whoops that the typical Modmotor builder will not likely experience because his engine is not built or operated the way that particular engine was. In the FWIW bucket the replacement engine was built the same but without the whoops and performed without incident. For the inquiring minds the whoops was not a build decision / modification it was a tuning whoops at a high power level.
Last edited by eschaider; 02-23-2020 at 08:26 PM. Reason: Spelling and Grammar
02-23-2020, 04:33 PM #24
While your intentions are good, Jan, it is noteworthy that you did not buy the components at the normal retail price point. In fact you indicate you put off your purchase until a reduced price opportunity presented itself.— which is what most of us do, if possible.
So the admonition is still true, buy adequacy do not buy overkill. The only exception I would consider to the general rule is if the parts became available at sufficient discount to their normal retail price point that the buy would not delay the purchase of other componentry necessary to the build.
02-23-2020, 05:26 PM #25
I am a complete newbie to the mod stuff and while I am no stranger to rotating assemblies I don't have a clue as to the strength of the Teksid. I have heard stories of 1,200 HP, 2,000 HP and now Cobra mentions John's block at 3,000 HP. Even Shawn Hyland mentioned 1,200 HP in his book years ago but then he promptly designed an aftermarket "improved" bullet suitable for 2,000 hp! All these horsepower numbers sound interesting and then you show me a picture with the entire bottom end blown out! Quite honestly, I consider some of these HP numbers suspect until I can actually see the motor in question. I have no clue as to how they are put together and more importantly, the length of their millisecond lifespan!
BTW, I love de-buring. Always have, always will. It is one of my favorite pastimes working on a block and parts. maybe I'm
Last edited by saltfever; 02-23-2020 at 05:29 PM.
02-23-2020, 06:55 PM #26
02-23-2020, 07:16 PM #27
The deburring time and effort is well spent, Kirk. If you have not yet selected a block you might want to look into what Ford ended up calling the Aluminator block. The block was originally used to replace the WAP blocks in the Ford Explorer series in 2006 in an attempt to mitigate block related warranty issues.
The block can be found in the following production vehicles:
They were OEM in the '05-'10 3V GT.
Other production vehicles using the Aluminator block include:
• 2005 — 2009 Ford Mustang, 300 hp and 320 lb•ft
• 2006 — and later Ford Explorer, 292 hp and 300 lb•ft
• 2007— and later Ford Explorer Sport Trac, 292 hp and 300 lb•ft
• 2009 and later Ford F-Series, 292 hp and 320 lb•ft
• 2010 Ford Mustang, 315 hp and 325 lb•ft
An internal Ford engineering note made reference to the block strength and integrity as follows;
"The foundation of these engines is the 4.6L engine block used in the '05-to-present Mustang GT. Thanks to a technology partnership with Cosworth, this new block features strength unmatched by any previous production 4.6L aluminum block. The employment of zircon sand for the casting molds, a chilled bulkhead cooling process, as well as a proprietary method of pouring the aluminum results in a denser block with better alignment in the aluminum's grain.
The casting also features increased main web thickness and round main cap windows to alleviate stress cracks often found with rectangular windows. The main caps are standard six-bolt but are now ball-burnished for greater strength. In production testing, the new block more than doubled the duty cycles of other aluminum 4.6L blocks." (emphasis added)
Ford added 5 lbs of aluminum to the Aluminator block casting over what was used in the Teksid casting. 5 lbs of additional aluminum in an 85 lb block is a non trivial increase in mass and strength.
If you have not already spent monies on a Teksid the Aluminator choice would be worth trying to pull off.
02-23-2020, 07:22 PM #28
These are pieces I saw, picked up and viewed in similar amazement after engine disassembly. The failure did not happen as a low velocity no rpm soft landing. It happened on a dyno under wide open throttle at around 6000 rpm or so and climbing. Don't forget they were still in the engine attached to the crank (so were the main webs). They were not blown out of the engine onto the ground.
02-23-2020, 11:22 PM #29
Thanks for the further explanation, Ed. I was kind of thinking it could only happen in a dyno environment. About the only place the rotating mass is already coupled to a self-actualizing brake. If anything was to happen the brake could be effective, assuming it was still attached! Compared to in-vehicle dynamics with 1,000's of lbs of inertia keeping things rolling along. (again, if still attached!)
02-24-2020, 12:45 AM #30
Unfortunately, I have 3 Teksid blocks. Well... maybe not "unfortunately" because I'm happy with what I have. I couldn't believe one could find such a nice 4 valve DOHC for such a low cost! From what I see the blocks will handle my (less than 1,000) horsepower goals just fine for now. Please enlighten me if you see problems ahead.
The world (and Ford) moved on from the Teksid quite quickly resulting in a good supply of available motors. The downside is the dearth of an SBC-like aftermarket parts community. But for fabricator like me that can be a plus.
BTW: Many thanks for mentioning the Mahovitz (sp?) side bolts . . . never heard of them. I was planning on ARP hardware, couple of MMR parts, and maybe a few specialty items as I learn more. The fun part is weighing what I will make myself (like main caps) and what I will buy because of superior product development I can't do or I don't want to invest the time in. As you may have guessed, race only, no street.