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02-20-2020, 09:09 AM #1
- Join Date
- Feb 2020
General Musings of a 4.6 Faileen Build
Facebook has made discussion forums a dying breed, which is unfortunate given the apathetic developers at FB haven't made a quality system for indexing and searching tech posts. It's been a while since I've signed up for one, but rather than seeing "what do i need to swap my v6 to a v8 is it hard hmu bro" posts, I'm hoping for a bit better insight from the personalities here as I've stocked up on a lot of information from this group (I think eschaider can build a 4.6 using just his teeth). I have plently of pleb questions, as I have never built an engine before.
First off, here is the car. An 03 that started it's life with an automatic and a V6. Currently has a 99 Cobra motor, a T56, built 8.8, bodykit off a wrecked Saleen.
My garage is pretty crap, so here is my 'workbench'.
I purchased the swap component for an 03 Cobra, and also bought the sum parts of someone else's abandoned 4.6 build. The items I have are:
WAP aluminum block, bored .020 over
Manley platinum series pistons, 18cc dish
Manley H beam rods
Forged 4.6 crank, unknown original application
Total Seal piston rings
Ford Performance 4V oil pump with Boundary billet gears
Canton windage tray
MMR oil pan
ARP rod bolts/crank bolt/main studs/sidebolts
1 DB and 1 DC casting heads from a Lincoln Aviator (never been so dehydrated pulling these in my life)
MMR bronze guides/valve seals
Replacement Ford lifters and rockers
96-98 Cobra camshafts
ARP head studs
Felpro head gaskets
For my first questions off the bat, which Facebook did a crap job of answering:
1) Dumb question, but on the rear main seal, it has a lip about 1/3 of the way around the side. Do I knock the seal in to the depth of the lip, or is it supposed to sit flush with the retaining plate?
2) I've read the oil slinger discussion, which left me feeling inconclusive about it's use. If it keeps the seal happier, I'm inclined to do it. Thoughts?
3) In reference to the oil cooler, I think I am inclined to delete the stock water/oil cooler and install a remote cooler. It seems an oil filter relocation kit deals with the block side things. I assume I can just run a cooler inline with any path the oil is taking?
4) In order to prevent the oil from being over-cooled, I think I would add an oil thermostat into the mix. Is block out > oil filter relocation adapter > oil thermostat > oil cooler > block in an appropriate routing?
02-20-2020, 02:46 PM #2
Some seals come with a dust cover that will snap in place on top of this. If your seal has one it is recommended to use it.
When you look at the retaining plate from the inside (back) of the plate it should look like this;
Improved Oil T-Stat. When you order it, it will be available in various temperature settings. Get the 215 ˚F unit so the oil temperature gets high enough to vaporize any water that might be present.
There is an option to order it with fittings. You should order it with fittings. You will not be able to buy those fittings anywhere near as well priced as they sell them. try to use -12 fittings everywhere.
For the remote filter and remoter filter mount use the Peterson Large Remote Primer Filter mount.. It will use the WIX 57003R filter, click here => WIX Filter.
The benefit of this system is the superior filtration of the large WIX filter and also, importantly, you can prime you engine with oil whenever you need or want to by simply using an electric drill to spin the small internal oil pump built into the remote filter mount.
p.s. For a race application a 0.020" overbore is asking for trouble. For a street build you are better off but you are still very thin in the cylinder wall department. You should read this thread, =>Why You Want to Use Standard Sized Bores
p.p.s Use a GT500 oil pump.
Last edited by eschaider; 02-20-2020 at 03:04 PM. Reason: Added Postscript
02-20-2020, 03:28 PM #3
- Join Date
- Feb 2020
1) Exactly what I needed and couldn't find on YouTube or elsewhere. And I should probably know better. Thank you.
4) I assume a natural segue is to use the Improved Racing oil cooler adapter then?
5) That's an uncomfortable read, but I'm fairly set on the path of the current parts going forward. The parts lot that I bought already had the machine work completed, and now that I've got the short block assembled, it's hard to undo that commitment.
The intention with the car is ultimately to have a well mannered motor that can reliably spout out up to 600 RWHP, travel 1,000 highway miles on demand, and take an occasional 15 minute beating up a mountain road. While I await my winning scratch off ticket, I've been selective about what I'm willing to invest in, with the philosophy that a broad margin in cooling mods are key to the longevity of the engine. I don't intend this to be the conclusive motor build for the car, but rather if I can build up selected modular fun-bits, I will have a solid parts stock in place when it comes to making incremental, and perhaps more excessive, purchases. I'll keep a standard bore block in mind for that.
02-20-2020, 05:04 PM #4
Setrab and then buying the fittings and hose to complete the job. It will be less costly and better.
02-21-2020, 05:48 AM #5
Ed always here to help! That is why he is awesome! Please keep us updated with the build!
02-21-2020, 10:18 AM #6
02-24-2020, 03:48 PM #7
- Join Date
- Feb 2020
This is the last weekend I'll spend with the engine for a while, but it actually looks more put together.
Last weekend I put the billet gears into the pump and attached it to the crank. This weekend I finished up the oiling system.
Pump primed (and spurting oil on rotation). Pump installation was pretty, as I used the stock Ford gears to push up into the crankshaft flat spots. I then used this orientation to approximate the billet gears in the oil pump so that when the RTV'd oil passage on the back of the pump went on, it was quick and clean.
Since I'm using a deep seated MMR pan, I needed to move the oil pickup height. In stock form, it was easily over an inch away from the bottom of the deeper pan. Conveniently, I had purchased a ton of odds and sods from a modular engine builder, including several standoffs. Using a bit of clay on the bottom of the pickup, I cut down one of the standoffs, used a longer bolt, and stacked it with the original standoff. This was followed by torching the pickup tube to allow it to bend to the oil pump passage. My final pickup to pan height was .405 inches, which is farther than the suggest max of .375 inches (and within elsewhere on the internet that says .5 inches with a race pan), but I think I'm close enough, and would rather be on the higher end of the spectrum than too low and running into an oil starvation issue.
Some comments on the MMR pan, I know that Moroso and Canton take a stock 4.6 pan and cut into it, and MMR are no different. I haven't seen those other two vendors products in person, but I'm pretty underwhelmed with the MMR pan. Looking through the stock bottom (which I guess serves as a baffle of sorts), I could see a really crappy, crooked cut of the original pan, the oil drain bolt doesn't sit at the lowest point so I imagine all the dirties from the engine aren't going to be evacuated during an oil change (probably good call for a magnetic bolt), and the powdercoated finish was pretty flimsy, with what looked like corrosion that was simply coated over in one spot of the pan. Reading online, I'm going to be scraping this on just about everything anyway, so I'll probably get a good look under the powdercoating soon, but I guess I get what I pay for in a $160 pan.
I wanted to get the pan on the bottom of the engine sooner rather than later to keep the dirt out+, so I layered the block with silicone, stacked the windage tray on top, then the oil pan gasket, then the pan, then torqued the oil pan to the block following the Ford specs. Then came the heads.
The cylinder heads are machine shop fresh, and I purposely installed them without cams or followers so that I wouldn't do something stupid like bend a valve until I'm ready. Mating surface hygiene seems to be key, so I wiped down head and block deck with a tack rag > a dash of brake cleaner > towel wipe down > quick blast with a propane torch to burn off fibers or lint > lint free rag wipe down > blast of compressed air before seating the head gasket.
As I'm a lightweight, I was also happy to not have the added weight of cams, lifters, and followers when seating the heads on the block. Per the JRGoffin build thread, two of the studs were placed on each corner to assist in getting the heads onto the dowels, and the heads went on easily.
I followed the ARP 8740 torque specifications, which calls for three equal increments to the stock Ford torque specification, but opted for 80 ft/lbs final torque over their suggested 75 ft/lbs. I feel given this is a boosted application, a bit more torque on the head studs is reasonable. Washer to head was dry, washer to nut and threads were coated in moly lube.
Unfortunately my trash bag to cover it is too small now that the heads and pan are on it, so it's sitting with the valve covers loosely draped over the heads and the bag covering front of the engine, which is where it will rest for the next weeks. Up next is loading the heads and setting up default timing, which will then segue into the complexities of degreeing the cams, a process I am pretty anxious about given the opportunity to make metal and metal go crunch.
02-25-2020, 12:16 AM #8
Jetsetter, you want your pickup to be between 0.3125" and 0.375" off the bottom of the pan. When it is higher you can uncover the pickup with a sideways slosh of the oil (turning?), a rearward slosh of the oil (accelerating?) or a forward slosh of the oil (decelerating?). Any of those scenarios will produce incremental damage to your cam journals (they are oiled last) and your rod bearings (they are next in line). After a short time you will experience a bearing failure for no apparent reason and spend a lot of money repairing the damage only to be greeted by a repeat performance.
If you run a high volume oil pump (3V or GT500) you want to use a good windage tray (The GT500 combo tray and oil pan gasket is very good) and at least one extra quart of oil if not two more than the pan manufacturer recommends. Best way to determine how much oil to use is to fill the pan with water when it is off the engine. You want the oil level to fall just short of touching the underside of the windage tray. When the engine is running you will have between one and two quarts of oil continually in transit between the engine and the oil pan so the operating level will be deceptively lower than you think, making it quite easy to uncover the pickup if the pan is underfilled or the pickup is too high.
02-25-2020, 06:27 AM #9
- Join Date
- Feb 2020
Is that true of even the deep pan? The internet is suggesting a capacity of between 8 and 9 quarts, and it was my intent to use the stock dipstick which should give a reading right about the bottom of the crank. As the pickup is situated significantly lower than the stock pan, and thus is submersed more deeply, it seems like my margin for slosh starvation is greater?
02-25-2020, 10:52 AM #10
Slosh starvation potential increases as the pickup positioning is rises in the pan. To produce a 1" drop in the oil level a moderate turn is required. To produce a 4 inch drop in the oil level a severe turn is required. A pickup 4 inches under the surface of the oil is less likely to be uncovered than one at the top of the pan. Your own observations / thinking in the last sentence of post #9 reveal the correct answer, you just don't take the logic to its final conclusion.
Think about this scenario, is it easier to uncover the oil pickup at the top of the oil fill level (pan) or at the bottom of the oil fill level when accelerating the vehicle. If higher was better wouldn't the guys in Detroit place the pickup at the very top of the oil pan oil level? Obviously not, the example is silly but the learning point is real. You want the pickup as deep in the oil as possible to prevent uncovering it.
The high pickup placement advice is yet another example of (presumably) well intended but incorrect and certainly untested information being published for the use of others. When you source build information off the net it is perfectly reasonable to ask the why question. This stuff in not inscrutable logic and if it doesn't make sense it is time to stop and noodle out the correct answer or get a second opinion — sort of like doctors and life threatening diagnosis.