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Reusing timing components?

12K views 41 replies 7 participants last post by  eschaider 
#1 ·
So I'm doing a budget teksid build with m112 blower. I have a 99 cobra long block I have 118k mile parts from. Is it alright to reuse the crank sproket, and primary and secondary gears? What about iron tensioners? I will be running the cobra engineering improved tensioner. I'll be using new ford chains. I'll be running stock 99 cobra camshafts, so not any crazy aftermarket cams to stress the chains. I'd rather reuse things I already have if it's fine, but if need be I'll buy the ford racing 4v timing kit.

Thoughts?

Thanks!

Rob

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#2 ·
So I'm doing a budget teksid build with m112 blower. I have a 99 cobra long block I have 118k mile parts from. Is it alright to reuse the crank sproket, and primary and secondary gears? What about iron tensioners? I will be running the cobra engineering improved tensioner. I'll be using new ford chains. I'll be running stock 99 cobra camshafts, so not any crazy aftermarket cams to stress the chains. I'd rather reuse things I already have if it's fine, but if need be I'll buy the ford racing 4v timing kit.

Thoughts?

Thanks!

Rob

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I would be cautious of any powedered metal components, Rob. Where possible, I would opt for billet steel alternatives. The last time I looked Melling, SpeedPro and Sealed Power were still offering a very reasonably priced (~$30) steel crank sprocket. Comp Cams offers a Steel adjustable primary cam sprocket. The secondary sprockets is where things get dicey. Everyone has stopped offering a steel secondary sprocket with or without adjustability. The only source of custom made steel secondary sprockets I know of right now is Michael at L&M. Because of low demand and small manufacturing quantities Michael's secondary sprockets are $400 for four.

The powdered metal sprockets have been known to crack and split into multiple pieces destroying an engine. Wherever possible I would use the available steel after market sprockets. Stock Ford Chains are as good as any aftermarket alternatives except for the high strength secondary offerings. If you go looking for the high strength secondary chains I would look at both Michael at L&M and Accufab. Both firms have the HD secondary chains available.

Ed
 
#3 ·
Right now I see two options:

Budget option

Around $875 to $950 with tax and shipping

Ford racing 4v timing kit: p/n M-6004-A464 about $500
Cobra Engineering passenger tensioner: $175
Cobra Engineering pins and fixture: $200


Bulletproof option

Around $1,500 to $1,650 with tax shipping

Comp cams primary gear set: p/n 10254 $231
MMR or L&M billet secondary gear set: p/n 465400 $320 or $400
Trick flow billet crank sprocket: p/n TFS-51800509 $30
Remaining 3 iron tensioners: about $150 give or take
Cobra Engineering passenger tensioner: $175
Cobra Engineering pins and fixture: $200
2x ford cobra primary timing chains: p/n 5W7Z-6268-AA $60
MMR or Accufab secondary chains: p/n 487028 $180 or $240
Ford aluminum chain guides: $100

What I'm asking is with stock cobra cams, new parts, and not looking to run 7,000+ rpm, is it really cost effective for me to drop an additional $6/700 dollars on timing components? Do these 4v engines break powdered metal gears or the smaller dowel pins without crazy rpm or cams?

I know you are a meticulous, better safe than sorry type of guy Ed, and I relate with that pretty heavily. If you were doing a more budget oriented build, are these parts something you would do or die over? If so, I'll go the bulletproof option. I just don't want to spend money somewhere I don't absolutely need to. That additional $700 could go towards porting my stock heads on top of refresh work ya know?

I appreciate your expertise greatly!



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#4 · (Edited)
I would not spend the money on the Ford kit. You will get all powdered metal gears and then need to buy steel replacements. The MMR secondary gears although 7 possibly even 9 way have broken in service . One of the cars that experienced it was Thunderbolt287 and it cost him an engine. Buy either the L&M set or a good used Cloyes set or just use stock Ford parts. Same story with the chains. Your two go to suppliers for the secondaries should be L&M and Accufab. Your other choices look good.


Ed


p.s. The upgraded pivot dowels from Cobra Engineering should be a no brainer must have item. The additional $700 pales in comparison to the cost of a rebuild after timing components fail — and they do.
 
#6 · (Edited)
I would not spend the money on the Ford kit. You will get all powdered metal gears and then need to buy steel replacements. The MMR secondary gears although 7 possibly even 9 way have broken in service . One of the cars that experienced it was Thunderbolt287 and it cost him an engine. Buy either the L&M set or a good used Cloyes set or just use stock Ford parts. Same story with the chains. Your two go to suppliers for the secondaries should be L&M and Accufab. Your other choices look good.

Ed

p.s. The upgraded pivot dowels from Cobra Engineering should be a no brainer must have item. The additional $700 pales in comparison to the cost of a rebuild after timing components fail - and they do.
Thanks Ed. I appreciate it. Just trying to be stingy with my money is all!

The only one I know of making a billet crank gear for 4v is the three letter company in CA. Would be happy to see links from others though if someone has em.
L&M in PA thankfully makes a beautiful set. Why all the hate for that three letter company in CA? Was planning on using a couple billet parts in my non-budget build. Heard the support usually is just above garbage tier... But no first hand experience.

Edit: spelling. On mobile.

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#5 ·
The only one I know of making a billet crank gear for 4v is the three letter company in CA. Would be happy to see links from others though if someone has em.
 
#9 · (Edited)
Tony, and anyone else that got confused, The first reference to billet sprockets in my post #2 above was to crank sprockets as you can see from the clip below;

I would be cautious of any powedered metal components, Rob. Where possible, I would opt for billet steel alternatives. The last time I looked Melling, SpeedPro and Sealed Power were still offering a very reasonably priced (~$30) steel crank sprocket. Comp Cams offers a Steel adjustable primary cam sprocket.
Later in the post I addressed the secondary sprocket suitability issue.

... The secondary sprockets is where things get dicey. Everyone has stopped offering a steel secondary sprocket with or without adjustability. The only source of custom made steel secondary sprockets I know of right now is Michael at L&M. Because of low demand and small manufacturing quantities Michael's secondary sprockets are $400 for four.
While I appreciate the effort saved by having someone else do your searching for you, the simple fact of the matter is you can easily find these components with a simple series of searches either through Google or your favorite auto parts website. Here is one example from an internet auto parts website;

Font Material property Screenshot Parallel Rectangle




As you can see above, Melling offers a billet gear also along with Sealed Power, SpeedPro and possibly others also. To find the parts however, it does require a certain amount of personal initiative to actually do the internet search. I suspect that as time goes by, various of these manufacturers may drop the product because it is cheaper to buy or build the powdered metal version of the part. If you need them they are available without going to the three letter company on the left coast.

Same thing for the adjustable secondary sprockets. Right now Michael at L&M is the only commercial source. That means if you need them, call Michael. Michael also has been providing the secondary HD chains as long as anybody but simply did not toot his horn about it. Good man, good company, good product. Michael would be my first choice (full disclosure) I have had a good working relationship with him for the better part two decades. That said, Accufab also has a very good product offering. You should choose the company you most like to work with.

Do not get sucked in by common internet lore that provides factually incorrect information so you can be suitably discouraged. In the immortal words of the fictitious Gunnery Sargent Thomas Highway, "... improvise, adapt and overcome." Relearn how to use the search function, reject internet misinformation and test all information to satisfy yourself it is true.

Ed
 
#12 ·
When you see "High Alloy Steel" as the material used in the part, Melling is trying to tell you the part is a billet part. These are among the most durable timing set components you can get. That notwithstanding, I still like the adjustable Comp primaries. They just make the cam phasing a bit easier than the non adjustable sprockets.


Ed
 
#13 · (Edited)
When you see "High Alloy Steel" as the material used in the part, Melling is trying to tell you the part is a billet part. These are among the most durable timing set components you can get. That notwithstanding, I still like the adjustable Comp primaries. They just make the cam phasing a bit easier than the non adjustable sprockets.

Ed
Great! Glad to know there is a cheaper alternative for my project.

Edit: just picked up the primary gears for $18 a piece shipped. For anyone on a budget that is a SONG of a price!

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#14 · (Edited)
That's a pretty obscure and impossible to find p/n on that billet crank gear as I certainly did search it up beforehand. I looked through Melling's online catalog and that part does not come up for any year Cobra in their part lookup tool. I am going to order one for a spare. Thanks

And, it is literally only available from one parts vendor.
 
#15 ·
That's a pretty obscure and impossible to find p/n on that billet crank gear as I certainly did search it up beforehand. I looked through Melling's online catalog and that part does not come up for any year Cobra in their part lookup tool. I am going to order one for a spare. Thanks
You can find them all under the 03/04 cobra mustang listing on Rockauto. Love that site.

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#19 ·
This is some good stuff you guys. I’m in a situation similar to the OP Planning a mild budget build on an 03 marauder engine. All I’ve bought so far is the terminator lower intake manifold and an m122. I’m just gathering information at this point as I go through the rest of the car. Secondary tensioners have been discussed but what about primary tensioners and guides?
 
#20 · (Edited)
This is some good stuff you guys. I'm in a situation similar to the OP Planning a mild budget build on an 03 marauder engine. All I've bought so far is the terminator lower intake manifold and an m122. I'm just gathering information at this point as I go through the rest of the car. Secondary tensioners have been discussed but what about primary tensioners and guides?
Hey BigMerc, you wouldn't by chance be a member over on crownvic.net? If so, howdy!

If I have time later today I will see if I can do some more research and get definitive answers. From my understanding, and I'm not 100% positive just yet, you want to use the solid metal guides, not the plastic ones. I know there are aluminum and steel versions, don't know which ones of those are the go to.

Then you want to use iron primary tensioners on everything except for the passenger side secondary tensioner. On that, you are looking for the "improved" tensioner James @ Cobra Engineering sells that corrects the side the chain is tensioned on. I'll see if I can get part numbers set up later, or maybe someone else can chime in.

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#21 ·
Hey rainyp71 yes I’m a member at crownvic.net I’m HDmech over there cause Bigmerc was already used and I’m a retired heavy duty mechanic so it fits. Yeah I would love to know what the answer is to the primary tensioner issues plaguing these modular engines. Apologies to the OP for highjacking your thread.
 
#22 ·
Hey rainyp71 yes I'm a member at crownvic.net I'm HDmech over there cause Bigmerc was already used and I'm a retired heavy duty mechanic so it fits. Yeah I would love to know what the answer is to the primary tensioner issues plaguing these modular engines. Apologies to the OP for highjacking your thread.
Joe Goffin's Aliminator - Gibtec Build thread will provide chapter and verse of how to build one of these engines along with the answers to the why questions. Here is the Primary Tensioner how come / why for answers, click here => Aluminator - Gibtec Build thread Post 209

Ed
 
#23 ·
So I'm doing a budget teksid build with m112 blower. I have a 99 cobra long block I have 118k mile parts from. Is it alright to reuse the crank sproket, and primary and secondary gears? What about iron tensioners? I will be running the cobra engineering improved tensioner. I'll be using new ford chains. I'll be running stock 99 cobra camshafts, so not any crazy aftermarket cams to stress the chains. I'd rather reuse things I already have if it's fine, but if need be I'll buy the ford racing 4v timing kit.

Thoughts?

Thanks!

Rob

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The word "budget" should not even come in to play with these 4V engines!

While you can save some coin here or there with smart purchases, there is just no way to make it happen inexpensively if you want it done right. Once I added the Whipple to my Aluminator, that put me well over $10K. Of course, I also wasn't pulling apart the original engine, so I sold that for a nice chunk back due to its low mileage, which was nice. Re-using an original crank, block, heads, etc., will definitely help. If you are starting from scratch and going all "new", be prepared to spend some coin. With everything Ford put in to the Terminator's engine development, it definitely was a huge bang for the buck over the previous New Edge Cobra.
 
#24 · (Edited)
My idea of "budget" is a polished cobra crank, molnar rods, and forged pistons of unknown origin yet. I just am not looking to blow money in places I don't need to. My full motor build I know is just going to take too much time and money to do it the way I want, so I want to get working on something now to enjoy while I finish that up (sleeved Aluminator block, DC heads, etc).

That's why I am excited by Mellings offerings of stock replacement style billet parts. Why spend $400 on a set of billet secondary gears when, for my goals and build, I won't need, or ever use them to their full capability? Same with adjustable primaries. Im running a stock cobra cam installed straight up, dot to dot, so I just don't need to spend the extra money. I can spend $300 less and still have piece of mind knowing I'm not using powdered metal parts. Also, for I believe around $100 you can get a set of trickflow adjustable crank gears that can take the place of the adjustable primaries, handy indeed.

Modulars are inherently much more expensive than the other big engine families (sadly), so I'm aware what I am getting into when it comes to getting it right! Your build guide is a great tool for people like me doing this out of a small 1 bay garage at an apartment complex, thanks!

You are absolutely right that when going new it is some SERIOUS coin! I am lucky and scored a 99 cobra long block for cheap a while back. Perfect condition cobra crank, teksid block, and a set of usable heads. After machine work and everything, I will be good to go. My hoarding of parts over the past two years has come in handy.

There's "best bang for your buck" budget, and "cutting corners" budget, and I am 100% not looking to cut anything.

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#26 · (Edited)
Yeah same here. Having someone build you a 350 or 5.3 is expensive as is. A mod motor? No thanks.

I've been gathering parts for a long time now. I don't have gobs of money to blow sadly so the big ones taking the back burner. The big build I'm doing I want to go with a billet crank for a big blower and Im not going to be able to afford that anytime soon, so with all the good stock parts I have I might as well have some fun.

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#27 ·


One more part to consider when upgrading the factory timing chain components is the all steel chain tensioners from Accufab that use a one piece plunger rather than reusing the factory multi piece plunger.

 
#28 ·
While I'm sure those parts are excellent, because Accufab makes some of the best parts in the market, they are certainly not a budget item. Retailing at $440 a piece, a full set is $1760 before tax. Factory iron tensioners should be good enough for my power level, sans the passenger secondary, which will be updated with James @ Cobra Engineering upgraded unit for only $175.

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#33 · (Edited)
Joe Goffin's advise about not cutting corners is good counsel, Rob. Some billet pieces from providers like Melling are a welcome alternative, others while better than OEM (durability-wise) do not really help you build-wise. An example of that would be the secondary timing sprockets that Cloyes called 9-way sprockets. The OEM and OEM duplicates deny you the opportunity to easily manipulate cam phasing specs and worse can change in either or both assembly and service. The Cloyes 9-way's while not without their own issues, were none the less adjustable which is a big deal.

Let me give you an example;

You have the engine assembled with OEM style sprockets and all timing components are installed dot to dot just like Ford specs out. When you do your first compression test both banks read consistent cylinder to cylinder within a given bank but are off by 20 psi bank to bank. This is a relatively common problem. The origin of the problem is cam phasing. The cylinder bank with the 20 psi higher reading has its cams advanced over the other bank.

The only way you would be able to know this is if you had taken the time to properly phase all four cams to the crank. Using Factory "dots", especially on a 4V engine design, will rarely, if ever, do this. To properly phase the cams you will need the 9-way adjustable secondaries. There are only two reliable sources for these sprockets today. One source is a set of good used but not abused Cloyes sprockets and the other is to buy a set of Michael's custom billet sprockets from L&M. While you might get lucky and only need one 9-way sprocket for the intake, it has been my experience that more often than not, you will need to also use a second one on the exhaust cam to get the intake cam where you want it to be.

For clarity the 9-way sprocket you put on the exhaust cam has zero impact on the exhaust cam phasing. It does move the drive chain that is used to drive the intake cam thereby either advancing or retarding the the intake cam by the number of degrees you change the drive chain positioning. It is not uncommon to run out of available adjustment on the intake 9-way sprocket and without a corresponding 9-way sprocket on the exhaust cam there is no way to bring the cams into proper phasing.

Bottom line, unless you can find two good sets of Cloyes 9-way adjustable secondary sprockets you are in need of the same thing from Michael and the current price of poker is $400 for those sprockets. The pain is not over yet, however. Without adjustable primary drive sprockets you have only half of a solution and will be stymied in terms of properly phasing your cams. The only quality commercial offering today is the Comp Cams offering, unless of course you can find a good used set of the Cloyes sprockets.

While the billet steel Melling offerings are good daily driver replacements you are not building a daily driver engine. The billet crank sprockets are excellent choices from any of the providers. The other sprockets — not so much, and the ante for a seat at the timing sprockets poker table gets close to $1K.

There is no such thing as a budget build for these engines. Budget builds will use up good money and not deliver anticipated results only to have to repurchase the parts you should have bought the first time.

Bottomline, there are no cuttable corners. If you try, more often than not, you will not be happy with the results.



Ed
 
#37 ·
For the run of the mill rebuild to get you back on the road, the Ford Performance timing chain kit is a good deal


The Ford Performance Timing chain kit comes with all new gaskets, iron primary and secondary tensioners, guides plus the chains and all of the bolts for the cams, damper, cams and front timing cover.

Of course, if you want more then you can go to Accufab racing for their heavy duty secondary chains, Billet chain guides, heat treated steel cam washers, trigger wheel, billet steel secondary tensioners that use a one piece steel plunger rather than re using the multi piece factory plunger.

Furthermore, Accufab has some interesting thoughts on trigger wheels
 
#40 ·
I think you have a very good argument for the return, Tony. Their literature shows a billet steel part you received a powdered metal part. The reason you selected the Cloyes part was because they indicated it was billet steel. It was not. At a minimum it is a factual misstep. It could be false advertising. I think they will be more cooperative if you press them a bit.


Ed
 
#42 · (Edited)
If you use the TFS two piece crank gear you need to machine the crank for a full length square key. The OEM woodruff key is inadequate. The key has unsupported "wings" that turn out to be essentially where the two sprockets ride and tear the wings off in operation - significant engine failure quickly follows.

Some guys use them but spot weld them together, others drill and pin them. Some do both. Any of those type of solutions is a bandaid for the real problem - the unsupported wings on the woodruff key. See pic below;

Automotive lighting Eyewear Font Rectangle Audio equipment


Even with the stock one piece sprocket you are better off with a full length hardened steel square key. Cars with crank driven blowers should double key the crank and damper using two of those full length square keys. ATI sells them cheap through Jegs and Summit.

Ed
 
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