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That will have to be what I do. I definitely want to use the MAF tuning to negate the need to constantly tweak the tune for changes In weather, temp, humidity, pulley changes or anything else that will require adjustment.
 

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There's really no need to start with the speed density tune if you're not going to stay with it. Just enter the MAF transfer and enable it to use VE1 as a trim table. Set VE1 to 100 across the board then start logging like you would with the speed density.

I started with speed density and switched to the MAF and the car ran better with the MAF even before it was tweaked.
 

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You're spot on with respect to bringing the engine up with the MAF based fueling model, Bob. My rationale behind the Speed Density first startup was more a fail safe approach. We know that the Speed Density tune, as supplied, will immediately start the engine with small tweaks for injector size. For a first timer, which is where most of us started, it gives a known good starting point to move off from along with a fair amount of confidence going forward

Once the initial anxiety about not being able to even start the engine on the new ECU is put to rest, the transition to the MAF based system is exactly what you described and you are right, it should run better everywhere for all the reasons Detroit migrated to MAF based fueling models.


Ed
 

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I think as long as the injector info is correct it'll fire up pretty quick. I worked with a guy that went MAF from the beginning and he had his wideband figured out it was pretty smooth.
 

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There's really no need to start with the speed density tune if you're not going to stay with it. Just enter the MAF transfer and enable it to use VE1 as a trim table. Set VE1 to 100 across the board then start logging like you would with the speed density.

I started with speed density and switched to the MAF and the car ran better with the MAF even before it was tweaked.
Are you using the Whipple supplied 123 mm MAF housing with the GT 500 slot style meter?
You’re running the Gen 5 Whipple 3.0 correct?
Thanks
Ken
 

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Are you using the Whipple supplied 123 mm MAF housing with the GT 500 slot style meter?
You’re running the Gen 5 Whipple 3.0 correct?
Thanks
Ken
Sorry. You have me confused with someone else. I have a gen 4 2.9 standard inlet. I'm running a BA3000 MAF.

You should be able to find a MAF curve somewhere. I think Steve's workbook is still available on SVTP.
 

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Before you consider doing that I would encourage you to get Greg Banish’s Ford Advanced EFI Tuning DVD from Amazon, Summit or better yet go to one of his How to Tune Classes that he puts on in different parts of the country.

Here is his website
Calibrated Success The course is a two to three-day on-site training that is nothing short of stellar. Greg is a modern day EFI Paladin character for those of you who saw the western series. He is a hired gun that GM, Ford and Chrysler use to augment their own inhouse capabilities when they get painted into various calibration corners.

To say the guy is great would be an understatement.


Ed
I hope that Greg's Advanced EFI Tuning DVD and his online courses are better than his "Engine Management Advanced tuning"book that I read and then tossed in the trash after I was done with it. The problem with the Engine Management Advanced tuning"book was that it had very generic and basic information about EFI systems and lacked any specific or detailed information such as calculating and creating a MAF transfer function for example. The Engine Management Advanced tuning"book is a useless book as it left the impression of it being written with the intent to show off one's perceived knowledge rather then serve an "advanced tuning reference book" that it clearly is not.

I would suggest contacting the manufacture of the engine management system you are using to see what they recommend for training or support for their product.
 

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I hope that Greg's Advanced EFI Tuning DVD and his online courses are better than his "Engine Management Advanced tuning"book that I read and then tossed in the trash after I was done with it. The problem with the Engine Management Advanced tuning"book was that it had very generic and basic information about EFI systems and lacked any specific or detailed information such as calculating and creating a MAF transfer function for example. The Engine Management Advanced tuning"book is a useless book as it left the impression of it being written with the intent to show off one's perceived knowledge rather then serve an "advanced tuning reference book" that it clearly is not.

I would suggest contacting the manufacture of the engine management system you are using to see what they recommend for training or support for their product.
Jan,

I think the books and what they offer vs what a prospective buyer wants to believe they offer is problematic with some consumers. For example, you were critical of the book for,

...(it) lacked any specific or detailed information such as calculating and creating a MAF transfer function.
These sorts of disappointments are not uncommon for readers who do not understand the basics of a particular device, in this instance the MAF meter. The calibration of a MAF meter is not done from scratch with pencil and paper or a spreadsheet. The calibration requires a MAF flow bench and instrumentation to measure the actual air flow and where necessary correct for ambient conditions. You can use Excel to flesh out the curve once you have the basic curve but you need to do the heavy lifting with the flow bench first to get that curve to flesh out.

You obviously went into the book purchase experience expecting to find a mathematical formula to build a MAF transfer function table. As you discovered through first hand experience it doesn't work that way. You were disappointed. The origin of your disappointment was your own lack of knowledge and experience with these devices. The problem was not with the publication.

Whenever a potential enthusiast approaches the learning experience like this it is probably better to forego the educational process and just buy the knowledge from a tuning shop as part of their tuning service. Continued attempts to turn the proverbial sausage grinder backwards waiting to create a steak from the ground meat never works out well.


Ed
 

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Sorry. You have me confused with someone else. I have a gen 4 2.9 standard inlet. I'm running a BA3000 MAF.

You should be able to find a MAF curve somewhere. I think Steve's workbook is still available on SVTP.
Sorry about that. I found the member on the other site I was confusing your set up with.
Thank you for the heads up on Steve’s workbook and thank you Ed for the link!

Ken
 

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If I remember correctly Kevin’s ECU was an MS3Pro Ultimate which is their top end but generic version of the MS3Pro EFI system for use on any vehicle. The primary differences are significantly increased I/O capability, the use of a custom wiring harness and I believe the Ultimate did not offer support for the OEM dash cluster. You also had to build your own tune basically from scratch, if I remember correctly. Kevin did a yeoman's job of bringing his car to life.

When he began his project it was about two years or so prior to the arrival of the P-n-P version of the ECU so it wasn’t as if he had a choice between the two. The only unit available for Kevin was the Ultimate version. That said, the programming was very similar with some exceptions in the ignition, OEM instrument cluster support and one or two other issues — but your entire tune, at that
time, was an original work of art that you gad to create in it's entirety.

Modern EFI systems use three possible fueling (programming) models. One is called Alpha-N, one is called Speed Density, and one is called Mass Air Flow. Each has their own strengths. Some EFI system can blend the models as we will see.


Alpha-N

Alpha-N is an older strategy that is used most of the time today for applications with aggressive cams and low manifold vacuum and/or sensor failure. The Alpha-N system offers tuning advantages for tuning engines with low vacuum engine idle. It is frequently used by Detroit when a MAP or MAF sensor failure occurs and the preferred fueling strategy (typically mass air but sometimes speed density) ceases to work. If you are familiar with Ford EFI terminology this is what Ford called “Load with Failed MAF” and as the name implies is the fall back condition when MAF failure occurs. The fueling model is treated the same when a failed MAP sensor occurs and the fall back is again the Alpha-N fueling strategy.

Alpha-N is very poor at dealing with hills (think about engine load going up and down hills at a constant throttle position), temperature variations and just about anything else that you’d care about except wide open throttle where it does fine.

In simple terms the Alpha-N strategy just pays attention to the throttle position sensor and bases fueling on throttle position. Ford’s thinking was probably something along the lines of, 'something is better than nothing' because it at least gave the owner the ability to 'limp' home or to a service center for repairs.


Speed Density and Mass Air flow

The next two fueling strategies find differing homes because of
differing demands placed on the powertrain. Speed Density and Mass Air Flow are the two prevailing and most popular fueling strategies in use today. When it is difficult to position a MAF sensor on the inlet side, Speed Density is the fueling strategy that saves the day.

A couple of examples of where you might find speed density is an eight-stack system that mimics the appearance of Weber Carburetors. There is simply no easy way to position a MAF sensor before the air enters the eight individual injector stacks. Another example is with twin screw blowers, or any PD blower for that matter, that uses a throttle body at the rear of the blower to minimize air flow restrictions on the inlet side of the induction system.


Mass Air Flow (MAF) based systems have become the gold standard on OEM vehicles out of Detroit. The primary reason is the imposition of strict emission standards and the requirement to meet the standard virtually anywhere and everywhere the cars are sold. MAF based systems can do this because they measure, with high precision and accuracy, the actual mass flow of air being consumed by the engine. Once you know the air portion of the air fuel ratio it is a walk in the park for the digital electronics to calculate an injector pulse width to provide the correct amount of fuel to hit the target AFR the Detroit calibrators have called out to meet emissions.

For the same reason (fueling precision) you will find MAF based systems on some very exotic high-end racing engines. Again, the engineers are looking for the fueling precision, especially in long endurance races where weather and atmospheric conditions can vary substantially over the time the race is run.

DIYAutoTune, the supplier of the MS3Pro systems, offers all three fueling models in the MS3Pro and provides some blending capability. Aftermarket implementations uses a blending blending model to help with very large camshafts and low idle vacuum. Detroit uses the blending model as a fail-safe for sensor failures that render one of the other two fueling models non-responsive.

As delivered, the MS3Pro P-n-P comes with a DIYAutoTune developed base tune using a Speed Density fueling model. The base tune will start the engine and run the engine right out of the box. The MS3Pro Ultimate which Kevin bought did not have this base tune available.

DIYAutoTune used a Speed Density fueling model because of the wide range of aftermarket MAF alternatives available. By going to Speed Density the MAF was taken out of the fueling calculation and you could reliably start any Cobra. The only other variable the new user would have to attend to was the injector size and manifold pressure (blower size / overdrive). Both were relatively easily handled in the tuning software.

When Kevin bought his system none of this was available and the user/owner was required to build his tune entirely from scratch. As Kevin accurately pointed this can be a bridge pretty far especially if you have never done this kind of stuff before. That is not the case with the P-n-P version of the ECU — it works right out of the box. Can you optimize it for your build? Absolutely and it will reward you with improved performance.

I am a MAF based fueling bigot because the MAF fueling model gives, me initially and the ECU later, complete control over all the fueling variables based upon the commanded lambda (AFR) and it maintains it, based on the feedback from the widebands. When you use Speed Density, changes in atmospheric conditions like an incoming storm, rain, cold weather, going up a mountain to higher ground all require a recalibration. With a MAF based system the MAF measures the air mass the engine is injesting and adjusts the fuel to match it so your commanded AFR is always met!

This can be a big deal, change a blower pulley on your engine and you need to update the Speed Density tune. Change camshaft phasing on your engine — you need to update the tune, change air filters on your Speed Density tune and you guessed it — you need to update the tune. There is a pattern here that is hard to miss. If I change the sentences to reflect Mass Air Flow instead of Speed Density then there is no update requirement.

So why does everyone like Speed Density? It has a higher fiddle factor that allows you to think you have made a positive difference when you actually may have not! Additionally, Mass Air Flow based fueling sounds complicated so guys go to Speed Density because all you need to do is fill in the fueling table with the volumetric efficiency of your engine.


Of course, we all know our own engine gets higher volumetric efficiency than anyone else’s, because it’s ours! Sooo, we get a little ego massage at the same time. Later on when we discover the car is not well mannered when we try to drive it, a lump of hard reality is deposited on our door step. Of course, those drivability problems are not our fault! The real problem springs from that ultimate killer cam we have installed and the unprecedented horsepower we are making that is so difficult to control in a daily driver — right?

The MS3Pro P-n-P comes with a very good ready-made tune (in Speed Density form) for you to lightly tweak to reflect your engine build. The final polishing of the tuning apple however needs to be hand done by you. In the worst-case scenario, you take it to a tuner to get the final wrinkles ironed out. Before you consider doing that I would encourage you to get Greg Banish’s Ford Advanced EFI Tuning DVD from Amazon, Summit or better yet go to one of his How to Tune Classes that he puts on in different parts of the country.

Here is his website
Calibrated Success The course is a two to three-day on-site training that is nothing short of stellar. Greg is a modern day EFI Paladin character for those of you who saw the western series. He is a hired gun that GM, Ford and Chrysler use to augment their own inhouse capabilities when they get painted into various calibration corners.

To say the guy is great would be an understatement. In the past he has given tuition credit for the purchases of his DVD’s. The DVD is an easy way to revisit topics from the school months or years later. IMO the best way to handle the training is treat it like a vacation that you learn on. Set aside a day travel out and a day travel back with three days of learning. It will easily be the best vacation you ever had!

One last comment, remember all the things that required massaging in the Speed Density Tune that the MAF based tune did not require any modifications to accommodate? Well if you opt for a Speed Density solution and you pay to have it done, the next time you begin to mod your engine, you guessed it — it’s time to go back to your tuner and pony up for a retune! Take the time to learn how to tune correctly (Greg Banish Tuning School) you will be glad you did.

BTW this guy speaks the same English you and I do and you don’t need a translator or graduate school ICE engineering degree to understand him. Here is a link to one of his papers on injectors. Download it read it and I know you will be impressed. Here is the link, =>
Are All Injectors Created Equal?
He talks just like he writes. His teaching and messaging ring like a bell on a cold winter morning.


Ed
Ed,

Thank you for this explanation. I have yet to pull the trigger as my wallet is considerably thinner after rebuilding the engine!...lol. I like more and more the idea of learning and then being able to tune my own car. If I were to run the OEM ECU for the time being am I just playing Russian Roulette so to speak? I'm turbo'd (mach 1) and so far this dipping into the turbo world has cost me and engine. Are there fail safes that could be built into a SCT tune? I believe my last engine failed due to my alternator not being able to prove adequate voltage to my fuel pumps thereby causing a lean condition. The car would run fine but under boost the voltage was down around 12v! Things went bad from that point on as you can imagine.

Shawn
 

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The stock ECU doesn't have safeties to work with really. You can set up the IAT table to pull timing, but I don't remember much else. There was a wideband that had an alert setting. I remember the video I saw they had it set up so if the A/F went lean it would shut off the ECU. Hard to miss that even with your foot on the floor.

IMO you wouldn't be playing Russian roulette, but I would definitely be more mindful of everything going on with the engine. I had my Aeroforce set up so it would flash if the A/F went lean over a certain boost level.
 

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Ed,

Thank you for this explanation. I have yet to pull the trigger as my wallet is considerably thinner after rebuilding the engine!...lol. I like more and more the idea of learning and then being able to tune my own car. If I were to run the OEM ECU for the time being am I just playing Russian Roulette so to speak? I'm turbo'd (mach 1) and so far this dipping into the turbo world has cost me and engine. Are there fail safes that could be built into a SCT tune? I believe my last engine failed due to my alternator not being able to prove adequate voltage to my fuel pumps thereby causing a lean condition. The car would run fine but under boost the voltage was down around 12v! Things went bad from that point on as you can imagine.

Shawn
The stock ECU doesn't have safeties to work with really. You can set up the IAT table to pull timing, but I don't remember much else. There was a wideband that had an alert setting. I remember the video I saw they had it set up so if the A/F went lean it would shut off the ECU. Hard to miss that even with your foot on the floor.

IMO you wouldn't be playing Russian roulette, but I would definitely be more mindful of everything going on with the engine. I had my Aeroforce set up so it would flash if the A/F went lean over a certain boost level.
Bob pretty much hit the nail on the head, Shawn. Although Detroit has built the occasional safety into the ECU strategy codes they typically are a country mile from the types of fail safes we think of on the performance side fo the street. That said anything can be built as an add on but when you get done with the design, fabrication and component cost the solutions usually may not make sense.

The engine failure you experiencesd could easily be attributable to the alternator being too small for the demands placed on your in car electrical grid. The easiest precaution without the access to the failsafes of an aftermarket ECU would be to do a power budget for your car and then get an alternator the exceeds the power budget's maximum power drawdown.

My car is a replica of an original '65 427 Cobra without any of the electrical power consumers the modern 03/04 SVT cars have. When I finished my power budget for the car, just to drive the ECU, COPS, electric fan, electric water pump, 3 FGT fuel pumps and Killer Chiller pumps I was marginally OK with a 240 or 260 AMP alternator — I don't recall which anymore, I think 240. If I had to do it over again I would go for a 320 AMP unit just to have the extra head room.

When you go to these big alternators be sure to upgrade the charging wire from the alternator to the battery or starter which ever you use for feed power from the alternator. The high amperage will literally vaporize an undersized charging cable. Whoever you use to build your alternator will have the HD components available. In the FWIW category I ended up using a Mechman custom built unit both for their robust design and importantly also for their willingness to work with me.

While not exactly Russian roulette you are exposed without the fail safes. It is curious but like so many other things, once you have access to something like a programmable engine fail safe, built into th eECU, you sort of take it for granted and wonder how you could ever have run the engine without the safety net you now have.

Just be deliberate and cautious until you can afford the replacement ECU — I know it takes a lot of the fun out of driving the car but it is the prudent thing to do. The engine repair will be much more costly than the ECU in the end (as you already know) and as long as you are circumspect you should be able to operate without catastrophe until you can replace the OEM ECU. Definitely replace the alternator that cost you the last engine last time with a larger unit. Do a power budget and then go talk to your favorite aftermarket alternator builder. Be sure to check out Mechman. They were very helpful for me.


Ed
 

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Bob pretty much hit the nail on the head, Shawn. Although Detroit has built the occasional safety into the ECU strategy codes they typically are a country mile from the types of fail safes we think of on the performance side fo the street. That said anything can be built as an add on but when you get done with the design, fabrication and component cost the solutions usually may not make sense.

The engine failure you experiencesd could easily be attributable to the alternator being too small for the demands placed on your in car electrical grid. The easiest precaution without the access to the failsafes of an aftermarket ECU would be to do a power budget for your car and then get an alternator the exceeds the power budget's maximum power drawdown.

My car is a replica of an original '65 427 Cobra without any of the electrical power consumers the modern 03/04 SVT cars have. When I finished my power budget for the car, just to drive the ECU, COPS, electric fan, electric water pump, 3 FGT fuel pumps and Killer Chiller pumps I was marginally OK with a 240 or 260 AMP alternator — I don't recall which anymore, I think 240. If I had to do it over again I would go for a 320 AMP unit just to have the extra head room.

When you go to these big alternators be sure to upgrade the charging wire from the alternator to the battery or starter which ever you use for feed power from the alternator. The high amperage will literally vaporize an undersized charging cable. Whoever you use to build your alternator will have the HD components available. In the FWIW category I ended up using a Mechman custom built unit both for their robust design and importantly also for their willingness to work with me.

While not exactly Russian roulette you are exposed without the fail safes. It is curious but like so many other things, once you have access to something like a programmable engine fail safe, built into th eECU, you sort of take it for granted and wonder how you could ever have run the engine without the safety net you now have.

Just be deliberate and cautious until you can afford the replacement ECU — I know it takes a lot of the fun out of driving the car but it is the prudent thing to do. The engine repair will be much more costly than the ECU in the end (as you already know) and as long as you are circumspect you should be able to operate without catastrophe until you can replace the OEM ECU. Definitely replace the alternator that cost you the last engine last time with a larger unit. Do a power budget and then go talk to your favorite aftermarket alternator builder. Be sure to check out Mechman. They were very helpful for me.


Ed

Well thanks again Ed,

The only thing I've added to the car that would increase demand as far as I can see is the Cobra tank with OEM pumps, a 40 amp BAP and 80lb/hr injectors. Does the BAP actually draw 40 amps?
I've also added a Derale 2 speed cooling fan for space savings, which draws around 23-24 amps on high speed and may be less than a stocker which is at 40 amps. I can't seem to find the answer to the stocker amperage draw for sure. I've replaced the faulty alternator and I believe they are 130 amp?

I purchased a DC amp meter a while back and was planning on measuring the draw on the system under boost. It has a blue tooth feature that will sort of datalog the amperage reading directly to my Phone via an app. Well at least as far as I can tell, I can review the readings it was getting without me having to read it in real time. I've got to play with it some more to be sure of how it collects the data and what it can actually show me

How does one go about doing an electrical Budget?

As far as the tune goes...My plan is to not tune it to max effort but to keep it conservative (450 wheel?) until my budget allows for the MS3 PnP upgrade. In the end this is a street car that I may take to the track if time and schedule allows.
 

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I would look more along the lines of a 160-200 amp alternator. I don’t feel the 130 is up to the task for the demands of these motors at WOT.
That’s just my opinion.

Ken
 

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Well thanks again Ed,

...

How does one go about doing an electrical Budget? ...

It is actually pretty simple. You build a table similar to the one below. List the amps your various devices are fused for, Total up the entries and that is your car's minimum power appetite, without any head room.
175593


In my case I use a Lincoln MK VIII fan that is hard to get a reliable amperage draw for. On low speed most people agree around 20 amps. On High speed the numbers are all over the map from 35 amps to start up surges over 70 amps.

If you have access to a soft start PWM controller it is much easier on your electrical system and can reduce the fan draw to a more reasonable 35 amp number which brings my total power budget to 239 amps in the example above. That means I most likely chose a 240 amp alternator but one of today's 300 or 320 amp units would not necesarily be overkill.

There are little things like injectors I have left out of the example but you can pick up on the calculation model pretty easily from the example above. Amazing how these exercises bring back memory. The 239 number would be power draw at peak engine speed, 7500 rpm. Anywhere below that the power draw drops off rapidly because the coil dwell times are programmed to dry off to avoid overheating the coils.

Be sure to check with the manufacturers of the various electrical devices. For example, the IC Pump is a Stewart FGT item that is locked at high speed. Other IC pumps will draw less amperage — but also pump less coolant. Here is some work from Ligenfelter that is eight or so years old but gives you an idea of IC pump performances. That redline on top is the Stewart FGT pump on high. It takes 20 amps to produce that curve.
175590

Be sure to use a suitable IC pump and get it's power requirements from the pump manufacturer. It is worthwilenoting that the performance figures Ligenfelter reported above are all at 13.3 volts. You wan your alternator to be able to charge the battery at 14.2 volts or a whisker higher.


Ed
 

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I would look more along the lines of a 160-200 amp alternator. I don’t feel the 130 is up to the task for the demands of these motors at WOT.
That’s just my opinion.

Ken
Thanks Ken...That was what I was considering a few months back and may still yet
 

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It is actually pretty simple. You build a table similar to the one below. List the amps your various devices are fused for, Total up the entries and that is your car's minimum power appetite, without any head room

175594


In my case I use a Lincoln MK VIII fan that is hard to get a reliable amperage draw for. On low speed most people agree around 20 amps. On High speed the numbers are all over the map from 35 amps to start up surges over 70 amps.

If you have access to a soft start PWM controller it is much easier on your electrical system and can reduce the fan draw to a more reasonable 35 amp number which brings my total power budget to 239 amps in the example above. That means I most likely chose a 240 amp alternator but a 260 or 320 would not necesarily be overkill.

There are little things like injectors I have left out of the example but you can pick up on the calculation model pretty easily from the example above. Amazing how these exercises bring back memory. The 239 number would be power draw at peak engine speed, 7500 rpm. Anywhere below that the power draw drops off rapidly because the coil dwell times are programmed to dry off to avoid overheating the coils.

Be sure to check with the manufacturers of the various electrical devices. For example, the IC Pump is a Stewart FGT item that is locked at high speed. Other IC pumps will draw less amperage — but also pump less coolant. Here is some work from Ligenfelter that is eight or so years old but gives you an idea of IC pump performances. That redline on top is the Stewart FGT pump on high. It takes 20 amps to produce that curve.

175595


Be sure to use a suitable IC pump and get it's power requirements from the pump manufacturer. It is worth while noting that the performance figures Ligenfelter reported above are all at 13.3 volts. You wan your alternator to be able to charge the battery at 14.2 volts or a whisker higher.


Ed
OK so it isn't that difficult at all then. Since I am turbo (mach 1) and don't have an IC pump nor an electric water pump, I believe my draw will be considerably lower than yours. Although, I do still have AC (It does get warmish here in Canadaland you know...lol) so I'll have to take that in to consideration too. I'll have to do some research now to see what everything adds up to on my car.

What does MDM stand for?

Shawn
 

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... What does MDM stand for?

Shawn
MDM is a gizmo one of the EE guys on the site used to build 10 or 12 years ago, Shawn. The letters stood for Mega Driver Module. It would drive three fuel pumps with a single FPDM at power levels around 20 + amps or so per pump. I don't remember the exact power rating anymore but it really simplified the wiring and eliminated shortchanging the fuel pumps at wide open throttle. It was packaged in a nice billet aluminum enclosure by Fore Precision,who is now Fore Innovations.


Ed
 

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Shawn,

I forgot to respond to one of your questions about the BAP and amperage draw. If you have a 40 amp BAP then you have a 40 amp draw on the electrical system that you have to provide for.

Ed
 
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