Mustang and Ford Performance Forums banner

1 - 20 of 48 Posts

·
Yes...it can be done
Joined
·
3,140 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hey guys, found a problem with the BAP tonight. My setup is tuned with the BAP controller setting @ 40%. For those of you with a similar setup, try this:

Go onto a highway a shift into sixth. Slowly give the car gas further and further, until the car hits around 3-6 psi of boost. Look for a severe, violent hesisitation.

On my combo, when the pressure switch for the BAP is activated @ 3-6psi, extra fuel is dumped in during closed loop. Not good.

Basically, I have two ideas for a fix:

1. Wire the BAP switch wires to a normally open relay, and have the TPS activiate it at a desired voltage.

2. Turn the BAP controller to 0.

Number two fixes the problem, I may change my setup to number one though. Question: Has anyone tested, or seen this on their car?
 

·
Snake Charmer
Joined
·
2,830 Posts
If the BAP is turned to 0 does it still supply enough fuel during open loop? Have you done some dyno runs while playing with the BAP so you could monitor A/F?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
140 Posts
i have a big hesitation at around 2400 rpm shifting like from 1 to 2
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
1,888 Posts
03Steve said:
Slowly give the car gas further and further, until the car hits around 3-6 psi of boost. Look for a severe, violent hesisitation.
Hey, Steve.

Yes, I have a slight hesitation too in the same situation that you are describing. The gear that I am in doesn't matter. For me, it's got to do with boost coming on at about 1-5 PSI.

But severe, violent hesitation? No. Mine is slight at low boost.

Here's my question: Do you have a fuel pressure gauge? I think EVERYONE with a Kenne Bell needs to have one. Determine what your fuel pressure looks like during PT and WOT.

I think that the hesitation is a symptom of a tune problem with the Kenne Bell and higher boost levels.

If the tune is not set up properly, the stock computer fights with the boost-a-pump over fuel pressure regulation. I have seen on another car where, under boost, fuel pressure spikes as high as 100 PSI and then comes quickly down to 45 PSI, or around stock fuel pressure. This does not appear to be a problem with the BAP at all.

Kenne Bell claims that the chip they sell with the kit does not have this problem. If true, it means that Jim Bell has figured out, in his tune, how to regulate fuel pressure in the chip without 'wrestling' with the stock computer.

Right now, as I type, my car is at JD's Repair getting some work done (more on that later). And it is getting a high octane race tune. Joe has been working with Chris Johnson and they have figured out the solution to this exact problem in the tune. I know that Joe put BIG hours into research to correct it. Thanks, Joe!!

I think that we should all see 45 PSI of fuel pressure during closed loop / idle and 75-80 PSI during WOT. And I am VERY INTERESTED to know if the hesitation is related to this fuel pressure problem....I have a sneaky feeling it is.

I'll see if someone has a video camera and I'll record my fuel pressure gauge during some driving - if I can hold the camera even remotely still.
:D
 

·
Yes...it can be done
Joined
·
3,140 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Shadowgray03 said:
If the BAP is turned to 0 does it still supply enough fuel during open loop? Have you done some dyno runs while playing with the BAP so you could monitor A/F?
NO. I only turn it to zero when I'm cruising the highways, or not racing. When I get out of the car, I turn it back to 40%.

I have done some dyno runs, with data logging, and monitored the boost-a-pump. IMO, the best way to setup the fuel, is to dump a lot into the car in the beginning, with the BAP and the transfer functions. USe the BAP to lean the entire A/F slope up, and the transfer functions to flatten the slope.

A couple other solutions I didn't think of last night:

1. Higher rated BAP pressure switch. (But from where?)
2. Larger injectors, no BAP. (Of course). :cool:

P.S. Saw a innovative intercooler idea from one of the Lightning boys last night. Think, ten gallon tank in the trunk with a bag or two of ice in the tank. YOU GUYS SHOULD SEE HIS BEFORE AND AFTER DYNO SHEETS. :eek:
 

·
Yes...it can be done
Joined
·
3,140 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Thanks HAMMER, that high psi spike is exactly what is happening. For me it is easiest to identify in sixth gear. We didn't do any closed-loop tuning on my car, and we didn't identify the problem on the dyno. For me it's severe, considering I run the BAP @ 40%.

I met Pete Friday night at Hooters in STL. We were dogging on you for not coming out! :D Seriously though, of all the cars on the boards, yours in the one I want to see. :cool:
 

·
Snake Charmer
Joined
·
2,830 Posts
This whole BAP issue has me somewhat concerned. ON a tune that doesnt handle this properly the EEC will cut pulse width to make up for increased fuel pressure or try and lower fuel pressure and keep pulse width the same. I hear some say their car runs like a top with a non KB chip and others have problems.

Hammer, where is your chip from?
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
1,888 Posts
03Steve said:
I met Pete Friday night at Hooters in STL. We were dogging on you for not coming out! :D Seriously though, of all the cars on the boards, yours in the one I want to see. :cool:
Dogging my ass, eeh? Yeah, I deserve it. Too much of a wuss to get to the races lately. I'll go have a seat.
:mad:
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
1,888 Posts
Shadowgray03 said:
This whole BAP issue has me somewhat concerned. ON a tune that doesnt handle this properly the EEC will cut pulse width to make up for increased fuel pressure or try and lower fuel pressure and keep pulse width the same. I hear some say their car runs like a top with a non KB chip and others have problems.

Hammer, where is your chip from?
Shadow,

I don't think it's as you describe. If the stock comptuer cut pusle width and pulse modulation, it would directly affect the A/F curve.

That is NOT the case with my car...the A/F line looks like the edge of a ruler. I'll dig up some dyno sheets and scan them in.

That's my whole point - don't just look at the A/F on the dyno and assume everything's good to go. We all NEED a fuel pressure gauge to ensure that we're holding 75-80 PSI under WOT.

Joe at JD's Repair and Performance did all my Kenne Bell tuning. He specializes in Autologic and his on-the-fly tunes are second to none. He's an awesome tuner not only for his own tuning abilities, but because he knows enough to NETWORK with other tuners and mechanics. He does not do guess work. He consults with the likes of Mike Wesley and Chris Johnson to ensure a superior tune. And it shows.

He's a vendor on this site. And here's his website:

http://www.jds-high-performance.com/
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
758 Posts
Boost-A-Pump

You might try not using the pressure switch, just short the two leads together. Youcan still change the setings to your conditions.

AMB
 

·
Yes...it can be done
Joined
·
3,140 Posts
Discussion Starter · #11 ·
HAMMER said:
Dogging my ass, eeh? Yeah, I deserve it. Too much of a wuss to get to the races lately. I'll go have a seat.
:mad:
While you're sitting down, can I take your car for a spin? :p
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
140 Posts
if you short the leads together...the bap wont be boost sensitive..wont it run higher pressure all the time..will it wear out the stock fuel pump a lot quicker??
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
1,888 Posts
03Steve said:
While you're sitting down, can I take your car for a spin? :p
LMAO!!!

Barbeque time. Hammer on the rotisserie (skewer? spit? WHATEVER!).

Three reasons why I've not been to the track (here we go, flame suit on):

1. Someone turned up the Boost-A-Rain Pump in New Jersey. I have forgotten what the sun looks like.

2. I run Atco and the schedule for test-n-tune is Tuesdays and Thrusdays. Additionally, I am currently teaching evening classes at a local community college and guess what nights? Tuesday and Thrusday.

3. Car hasn't been 100% due to the topic of this thread. I've been too scared to run the car with questionable fuel pressure.

It's all squared away now and I pick up the car from JDs this week. But I don't like all of this attention! I'm gonna quietly sneak to the track one night this week (if Franco lets me). If you don't hear from me about it, it means that I couldn't get the car out of the 12's!

LMAO!!!

Rich (my car would run 10's in the hands of a more capable driver like HRH) Juliano
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
85 Posts
Do you all feel that the stock 42's are safe to run at 80 psi along with the boost-a-pump?

Do you think the boost-a-pump is needed, or could you get away with not using it and going with larger injectors instead (f.i. does Pete still use the Boost-A-Pump with his 50# injector combo?)?

I'm about to plop down my cash next week for the KB and need some direction, gents. The tune is covered (Patrick and/or Willie will be doing it in person at DiabloSport), but I'd like to go the best route on the fuel issue.

Thanks for all your help and advice in advance!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
140 Posts
patrick did mine himself the other day....still has a few issues...r u in south florida??
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
85 Posts
mike5876 said:
patrick did mine himself the other day....still has a few issues...r u in south florida??
What exact mods do you have on your Cobra? Would you mind explaining what problems you're currently having, and when you're getting fixed, as wel as what type of power and a/f ratio #'s you're making now, and what you're wanting to achieve (at which boost levels, etc.)?

I'm debating if I should keep the stock manifolds or go with some Kooks LT's. I just do not want the car extremely loud, nor do I want to be banging up the headers on these raggedy streets around here. I'd really also love to know if I should just go with the ole 50 or 55# injectors, with or w/out the Boost-A-Pump.

I currently have:

K&N Drop in Replacement (Steeda CAI on the way)
Stock Blower (stock pulley or 2.95" Reichard Racing Ultra Grip)
Magnaflow High Flow Catted X-Pipe
Magnaflow Catback
DiabloSport DeltaChip

So you can see that I'm going to be making a HUGE jump from where I am now.

I'm not in Boca, and the drive is approx. 9-10 hours :( , unfortunately. I am very close business wise to DiabloSport, as well great friends with Nick, Johan, and Patrick (can't forget Brian, and Karina :shocked, she's HOT!); they are my confidants.

Thanks for your reply. I do appreciate any and all future help and chats.
 

·
Snake Charmer
Joined
·
2,830 Posts
HAMMER said:
Shadow,

I don't think it's as you describe. If the stock comptuer cut pusle width and pulse modulation, it would directly affect the A/F curve.

That is NOT the case with my car...the A/F line looks like the edge of a ruler. I'll dig up some dyno sheets and scan them in.

That's my whole point - don't just look at the A/F on the dyno and assume everything's good to go. We all NEED a fuel pressure gauge to ensure that we're holding 75-80 PSI under WOT.

I agree fuel pressure gauge is a good idea, I wont have one when my KB goes on but I can hook up my auto tap and do some logging to monitor fuel pressure issues.

As for the A/F getting skewed, cutting pulse width and/or changes in fuel pressue can both affect it so if your A/F is good then I wouldnt think it would be an issue with fuel pressure either.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
140 Posts
i have bbk longtubes, mac 3" exhaust the problem i had was that pat said i was pegging the stock mass air meter ..they had me buy a 92 mm pro m meter calibrated for 55 injectors..pat then was able to get the chip to work with my stock injectors..before the new meter...a/f was good until around 5200rpm then it wanted to go lean...car made 552rwhp with 17lbs boost..they claim that their superflow dyno is very conservative compared to a dynojet....the car is really fast compared to before.....2.8 pulley headers and exhaust...better powerband ..it has a weird miss at around 2400 rpm and the service engine light has come on two times this week..so i dont think they got the program down 100 percent..im really curious how they make out with your car..they are very adamate saying that the 55lb injectors are not needed..pat says the stock ones are perfect..he has tuned a few cars so ill take his word..im just not happy with some of the driveablity issues....also the boost a pump in my car only raised fuel pressure to around 58psi not he 80 lbs that kb says it shoud..il go to diablo when you go there and meet you..mike
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
140 Posts
oh yeah.......forgot......karina is hot...no doubt!!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
85 Posts
mike5876 said:
i have bbk longtubes, mac 3" exhaust the problem
Do you have high flow cats or off-road no cat pipes?

i had was that pat said i was pegging the stock mass air meter ..they had me buy a 92 mm pro m meter calibrated for 55 injectors..pat then was able to get the chip to work with my stock injectors..
Wow, so I may need to be prepared here, but I really do not want to buy another meter, if they can get it to work on the factory 90, hopefully. It'll flow plenty, but the electronics is the tricky point, obviously.

Had you buy a Pro-M calibrated for 55# injectors, 'eh? That's unique; apparently that gave him enough leeway in the electronics for compensation.

before the new meter...a/f was good until around 5200rpm then it wanted to go lean...
Were they using a tailpipe sniffer or a bung style? I believe they have both now. I'm taking my FJO true-wideband with me so they can compare, as my FJO is dead on accurate, and I can log it to my laptop. On the local Dynojet here my FJO shows 11.4 pretty much straight across where as the Dynojet's tailpipe sniffer shows 12.5 to 14.0 (at redline!!!), so tell me that ain't crazy! I assume something is going on with our local dyno's tailpipe sniffer when it comes to '03 Cobras with cats (high flow or factory). I've compared on 3 different occasions, and the same thing, although when comparing the two meters on my Lightning, the tailpipe sniffer was pretty close in accuracy to my FJO, so go figure.

car made 552rwhp with 17lbs boost..they claim that their superflow dyno is very conservative compared to a dynojet....
Yes, their Superflow is pretty conservative. It is a dual Eddy Current system, like the biggest Mustang Dynes (the smaller Mustang Dyne uses only a single system), so the absorbing power of it is massive. The way it calculates the power is differently than a Dynojet. On average you can expect 5 to 10%, or even more, lower #'s when comparing a Superflow to a Dynojet, which would put you between 581 and 613 rwhp on a Dynojet with your current Superflow #'s. They definitely have the best dyno available in the world, no doubt about that!

the car is really fast compared to before.....2.8 pulley headers and exhaust...better powerband ..it has a weird miss at around 2400 rpm and the service engine light has come on two times this week..so i dont think they got the program down 100 percent..
Yeah, sounds like the tune for non-PE isn't optimized. I'm sure he can work that out with some tweaking, though. What codes is it spitting out, or have you not checked them?

Are you getting any belt slip with that pulley at all, do you think?

im really curious how they make out with your car..they are very adamate saying that the 55lb injectors are not needed..pat says the stock ones are perfect..he has tuned a few cars so ill take his word..im just not happy with some of the driveablity issues....
I know Pete was down there with 55's when he made 720 rwhp, but he recently switched over to 50's. I talked to him on Thurs/Fri and he recommended 50's, so I'm still studying up to see what I should do.

also the boost a pump in my car only raised fuel pressure to around 58psi not he 80 lbs that kb says it shoud..il go to diablo when you go there and meet you..mike
Well, apparently KB feels the stock injectors are fine as long as you are making 80 psi. KB told me that others are only running 60 psi when they aren't using KB's tune, yet some tuners are saying 80 psi isn't needed, though I'm not quite sure yet if they have figured out where in the factory calibrations it is to allow the 80 psi, that KB is getting, w/out having the pcm pull the fuel back on them.

KB wants you to use their chip, but they are fools to think anyone would run such a powerful combination on the street and not have the ability to be custom tuned on the fly elsewhere than KB's facilities. Either they need to come off on the area of the pcm that needs to be calibrated, or the tuners need to really dig deep and find it themselves, that is if the higher fuel pressure is really needed. Personally, I think a larger injector at 60 psi is the way to go, but I've been wrong before, so we'll play this one out and see what Pete and others say. I'll run it by Patrick and Willie as well.

Your thoughts?
 
1 - 20 of 48 Posts
Top