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stanggt00 said:
Anyone out there using the densecharger system? What are peoples inputs on it?
I see in your sig you have a C&L Mass air meter. I believe they do not recommend using their meter with any cold air kit. I would just keep what you have.
 

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Keep the C&L by itself. You will not gain any power from adding the dc and you may end up with some idle problems and possibly a lean condition. With a CAI, the air will enter the meter unevenly due to the curve in the pipe in from of the maf.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
All this I already know, but thanks for the concern. I was planning on going to a Pro-M anyways. Thats the meter I was going to use it with, and I guess I should have said that when I posted this topic. Thanks for your replies.
 

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Here's my opinion since I actually own one!!!!
It is a great system! I highly recommend it!
I have no idle or driveability problems......If someone has them after installing this kit....they must have not connected something right!

Just do this simple test if you are debating between the densecharger and something like the BBK or MAC kit.......Drive the car for 15 minutes with each kit on there....open the hood and grab the inlet tube with your hand.......I bet you don't hold the MAC or BBK kits very long!!! It will burn your hand off!!
Now try the densecharger.....AHHH....nice and cool.
:D

Densecharger (Demolet Motorsports) use and recommned the Pro-M meters and I personally don't like the C&L.....how can you trust a "high-performance" meter that uses the stock electronic module????

Anyway that's my 2 cents...keep the change!!
:D
Cheers,
Ryan
 

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Ryan98GT said:
Just do this simple test if you are debating between the densecharger and something like the BBK or MAC kit.......Drive the car for 15 minutes with each kit on there....open the hood and grab the inlet tube with your hand.......I bet you don't hold the MAC or BBK kits very long!!! It will burn your hand off!!
Now try the densecharger.....AHHH....nice and cool.
Do you work for Densecharger? Cuz thats a bunch of crap.... I've got a 4"/3.5" steel pipe that I built and right after driving you can easily hold your hand on it, only fairly warm and plastic would be about the same. The incoming air keeps the pipe cool, the only time steel might get significantly hotter is if you let it sit and heat soak with the hood closed after running, but it would cool back down shortly after startup anyway.
 

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TurboX2 - I believe you're missing the point. His question was if the Densecharger system was any good. To which I answered based on my experience. I have the Densecharger on my 98GT and I also have a BBK chrome cold air (metal) on my wife's 88GT. I know from actually owning both that the metal inlet tube is HOTTER than the plastic inlet tube.
Heat soak.....you bet your ass you will have heat soak in any street driven car. So what's your point?
I also have not seen the metal "cool down shortly" either.
Maybe you have...but in my experience I have not.

No I don't work for Demolet....but that's funny. :rolleyes:
Bunch of crap??? I guess you know it all then! You must live in Alaska so the incoming air keeps it cool. Here in the south the pipes are hot!
HAha :lol

Cheers (Lighten up),
Ryan
 

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Hey, whatever, I got back from driving my car last night, popped the hood to check something, and could easily lay my hand on the metal inlet pipe. Since Densechargers main claim is lower heat, and you saying the get super hot, I called b.s. Simple as that. If you were to test it after a 1/4 mile pass it would be even cooler because of the volume of air traveling through it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Can I add something to this. I know I started the thread, but if you think about it, I have to agree with Ryan. Here's why:
Even though the inlet tube of a steel or plastic inlet may not be "HOT" when you touch it, it is being cooled by the air it takes in. Instead of "COLD" air being sucked in, it is getting warmed up by the conductive metal or plastic, and not as cold as it could be. How much of a difference in performance it's going to make, I dont know. I leave that to the experts out there :)
 

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I'll hit this one more time and I'm done. A 281 cu. in. engine pulls a little over 400 cfm at 5000 rpm. To pick a number thats close we'll say the inlet pipe averages 3.5" diameter. With that diameter pipe air going through it would be traveling about 101 ft/s. To go through 18 inches of pipe takes ~.015 seconds. Just how much heat do you think that air will pick up in .015 seconds? Yes, the pipe is being cooled by the air, but due to the volume coming in the average temp increase is very, very small.
 

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Kurgan lost 2/10's in the 1/4 mile with his. But every car is different. Pro M with an open filter is the way to go, IMO
 

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I installed one on my car after the bullitt intake swap (yes Ryan it was hooked up properly) and the car slowed down at the track. I swaped it out for a simple 3.5" steel tube and the car picked right back up. Plus there is the issue of quality and I've seen this on more than just my kit. Basically the densecharger kit is nothing more than a Home Depot cold air kit with a few pieces cut to fit and painted with spray paint. Anyone that has worked with rubber couplers and painted plastic knows that the paint has a tendancy to melt where ever the rubber is touching it. This makes the paint come off of the piping and sometimes leads to leaks. I never had leaks but I did have paint coming off on my hands when fitting it up.

I also noticed issues with the IAT sensor fitting properly into the piping as well as on Dave's (Kurgan) car. All in all a creative person could buy a K&N filter for $40 and buy the parts necessary for another $40 and do the same job.

Bill
 

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Here is my question regarding the steel CAI's...is the air cooling off the metal or staying cool as it goes into the intake. Think abou this for just a second...heat transfer. If that air is cooling that metal then it is going to be warm going into your engine. What is the point then? And does anybody think the elbow on the BBK and MAC tubing, the ones that set JUST before the MAF, are doing your car any good? No. They dont. They create turbulence, which jacks with the MAF severely. The main benefit a CAI could possilbe give over stock is if you had a bad filter medium prior to putting it on, then stuck something like a K&N on there. The Pro-M Univer samples air through a 360 degee measuring device, as opposed to a hotwire that is directly in the path of the incoming tubulent air. If you must have a CAI I would suppose that would be the way to go. IMO, CAI's are waste. Nobody that I have met at a racetrack, that is a successful 4.6 racer, has said anything great about them. They are usually running a custom calibrated air intake setup from Pro-M, homemade straight tubing up to the TB with the filter under the hood and blocked off, or a C&L setup under the hood...that or a stock airbox with a K&N. I just think the current group of popular CAI's all bunk. I used to by into the hype, but a realistic gain of 5 rwhp over stock for 175-220 bucks....I would rather buy some contol arms or put the money towards a C&L steup or Pro-M.

I knew if I dug around in here enough I would find Bill lurking these forums...:D
 

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twokingsracer said:
Here is my question regarding the steel CAI's...is the air cooling off the metal or staying cool as it goes into the intake. Think abou this for just a second...heat transfer.
aaaaaarrrrgggghhhhhh!!! Why can't people read anything before replying to a thread? I'll quote myself from just a few replies ago....

"A 281 cu. in. engine pulls a little over 400 cfm at 5000 rpm. To pick a number thats close we'll say the inlet pipe averages 3.5" diameter. With that diameter pipe air going through it would be traveling about 101 ft/s. To go through 18 inches of pipe takes ~.015 seconds. Just how much heat do you think that air will pick up in .015 seconds? Yes, the pipe is being cooled by the air, but due to the volume coming in the average temp increase is very, very small."

Also, don't know why Kurgan's car slowed down, must have been a poorly designed pipe. I built my own CAI and gained up to 9 ft-lbs on the dyno. I've got a K&N conical in the fender, 4" tubing to the MAF with 5" of straight before the meter, and 3.5" pipe after tapering down to 3" as it turns to the t.b. Sure you can monkey something together from Home Depot, but if you don't have a good design, have poor transitions, elbow right in front of the meter, etc.. it ain't gonna do much for ya...
 

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aaaaaarrrrgggghhhhhh!!! Why can't people read anything before replying to a thread? I'll quote myself from just a few replies ago....
Just how much heat do you think that air will pick up in .015 seconds?
I did read it. How much do I think its picking up? You tell me...your doing the mathmatical calculations. Its still picking up heat from the metal. How the hell else is it cooling it off? Magic? Nice formula though. As for your setup, it sounds very good, the length of the straight pipe in front of the meter is what makes the difference I would guess. Some of the CAI setups I have seen dont have that...its more like two to four inches. I have read and been told that the optimal distance for tubing is 7 to 8 times the diameter of the MAF on either side, but 4 to 5 times will work just fine.

Now did you really read my post. I was simply pointing out the contradictions of CAI's constructed from steel...the fact that they increase air temperature, and that there are better setups that are proven. You admitted that the incoming air picks up heat with your formula...I never said I knew exactly how much heat. But doesnt it defeat its own purpose to some extent? And if that arguement were completely true, then an air box/filter that is setting under the hood and is sealed off from the engine compartment (such as the C&L design) will do exactly the same thing only without the bend before the MAF. The air is coming in from the hole in the fender so its cooler, its isolated from the engine heat, an its going through so fast that it couldnt be picking up THAT much heat could it? And since plastic is proven to isolate the air from the heat much more efficiently than steel...well you get my point. Just an observation I guess.
 

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Sorry to jump on you, but someone had just asked basically the exact same thing you were asking (heat being absorbed by air in the pipe) and the question had already been addressed. Can I tell you exactly what the average temp rise is? I could possibly calculate it, but I'm sure as hell not going to bother as all it takes is a little common sense to know that in that little time the temp rise will be very small. The air is passing through something a little over ambient in temp, not a blast furnace...
 

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Okay...this is all I will add. When you say ambient...what ambient temp are you refering to. The ambient temp in the tube..the ambient temp in the fenderwell? The temp in that tube is going to be like a blast furnace...and a hell of a lot hotter than the air coming in. Liken in to the ambient temp of air in a closed up car on a summer day.
 

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ambient = outside temp

twokingsracer said:
Liken in to the ambient temp of air in a closed up car on a summer day.
Riiiggghhhtt..... *IF* the inlet tube were hot, car were not running, and you physically closed off both ends of the tube that might be a somewhat valid comparison....however compared to a dynamic environment where the air is moving through at very high velocity its meaningless. Why don't you go put a big fan in that car to exchange the air a few times every second and see how hot it gets inside then....

How about this, y'all believe whatever the hell ya wanna believe and buy whatever the hell y'all wanna buy. I picked up 9 ft-lbs at one point in the rpm band with my homemade pipe, and I haven't yet found a time when I can't easily and comfortably lay my hand on the inlet pipe. Those are facts.
 

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TurboX2 said:
ambient = outside temp

Riiiggghhhtt..... *IF* the inlet tube were hot, car were not running, and you physically closed off both ends of the tube that might be a somewhat valid comparison
First of all the inlet tube is going to be HOT from the engine that is RUNNING. How ****ing hard is this to understand? The STEEL is hot because it is setting next to a HOT RUNNING MOTOR, it IS enclosed with that HOT RUNNING MOTOR. And since IT IS MADE OF STEEL, its going to retain the heat from the AMBIENT TEMP UNDER THE HOOD. The temp under the hood is EXTREMELY high, which heats the metal, which inturn heats the interior of the tube. That is what Im saying. So, the cool air comes in and cools (to a minor extent) the metal tube...how, heat transfer to the air. So, that being said, the incoming air will rise in temp to some degree. THAT IS ALL I WAS TRYING TO SAY!! I dont know how many times I have read where guys state that they cant lay their hands on the steel tubing of a CAI after running the car for some time. I have not read any posts where guys have said, "You know what? I ran my car six passes today and drove home...and soon as I got there I could put my hand on that CAI." The heat from the engine makes it hot...just like it does a lot of other metal parts. Thats all Im pointing out. I wouldnt buy a steel CAI if I had the money in my pocket...I would put one on if it were given to me. I have however done like you, and made a straight flowing air intake tube with PVC, and yes...I can lay my hand on it after running it, it will be warm from the heat produced by the engine, but that is it. I stated earlier that plastic was a more efficient material than steel did I not? I never ****ing endorsed steel CAI's.

Liken in to the ambient temp of air in a closed up car on a summer day.
I will admit that was a bad comparison in terms of syntax. I should have expounded on it and further stated that the ambient air in the car would raise the temperature of cooler air that comes in. Since there was a constant heat source, in this case a running engine, even though the air would cool the pipe...it is still picking up heat that is retained by the tubing, which is caused by the running engine. I am not trying to say the air is going to be that hot, just hotter than when it was in the fender well.

I think it is great you picked up nine pounds of torque from your homemade inlet tube.
 
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