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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Good afternoon gentleman.

Its been a while since I have been peeking around the forums here but the time has come for me to finally bite the bullet and tap into the wallet to get my motor rebuilt. I am looking for some suggestions on an engine builder to figure out what the noise in the motor is attributed to and freshen everything up so I know what is inside and know it is all new.

I picked up the motor from a buddy of mine who said it had a little knock in it. Unfortunately I never heard the motor running to hear it first hand so I cannot answer the question of where it was coming from. The engine is out of the car. He said it was not the lifter tick so we can rule that out. The engine has less than 40,000 miles on it and said the knock started after the last tune he got which he thinks led to a lean condition.

The motor will be going into a daily driven 67 mustang with a HP goal of about 650-700 HP. I will never be upgrading past that point because I will not have the Octane to support more. (E85 is not available in my part of the world..NJ) I am not looking for anything fancy just a solid reliable motor that I know what is inside and will give me a few years of ear to ear smiles when I want to pass someone!

The motor is stock at this point and the only thing I am going to do is go with a little bit larger piston to make sure the cylinders are round and install a set of cams for that pissed off angry sound. I would like to keep the stock crank and rods as I know this will handle what I am looking for. I will probably be topping everything off with a TVS 2.3 or something similar. Again this is show and go car and will never see the track. I am trying to do it as cost effective as possible but only want to do it once.

To sum it up I need a tear down, inspection, replace broken or worn parts causing the noise, install new pistons, freshen the crank up if need be, install new cams with necessary supporting mods to head, all machine work to make everything flat and round and then reassembly.

I would appreciate any suggestions you have with a reputable engine builder and also tips on parts to replace or upgrade "while I am in there" And guys please remember... if I was capable of doing it myself I would to save money !!! I am located in Southern NJ and not opposed to shipping it to a reputable builder but my first choice would be to stay as local as possible. Thanks in advance for any help you are willing to provide.

Joe
 

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Joe,

My guess, it's only a guess, is that the engine has either hurt a rod bearing or if it went lean as the original owner suspects, then hurt a piston. If you have hurt a piston then I would encourage you to use the least overbore necessary to repair the engine. If it is an iron block that would typically be a 0.010" overbore. If it is an aluminum block I would attempt to use a 1, 2, or 3 thousandths overbore and order pistons to match the overbore.

My next comment is going to sound confusing. Do not bore the block until you have the pistons and then bore the block based on the size of the delivered pistons. Here is an article on cylinder bore sizes to ponder before boring your block, click here => Why You Want to Use Standard Sized Bores. It is in reference to Aluminum blocks. Iron blocks have a bit more overbore capacity.

If the damage is to a rod bearing you have two choices, new crank or cut the original crank 0.010" undersize. If you cut the crank undersize, while you don't have to, I would recommend you have it re-nitrided to duplicate finished journal surface hardness of the original OEM crank. If the rod bearing failed you may also need a replacement connecting rod.

Engine shops, including the one I will recommend later, typically already have a working relationship with a piston supplier. If they will accept your request, I would recommend using Gibtec billet pistons in the rebuild. The shop I will recommend uses Diamond pistons which are very good.

Try not to use a piston with an offset pin. Offset pins are used to quiet piston slap when the engine is cold. Properly sized pistons, properly installed will not produce piston slap. Read Joe Goffin's Aluminator - Gibtec write up where he talks about the pistons and how quiet the engine is after initial startup. It is the same way today five years later with on center pin pistons.

Get the replacement chain guide pivots to prevent accidental breakage if you decide to use an aluminum block. Use a 3V or a GT500 oil pump. Same pump but the GT500 has a steel backing plate. Get a set of billet pump gears. Boundary Engineering <= clickable would be my first choice. Triangle Speed would be my second choice. Triangle Speed has the gears manufactured for them. Boundry designs and manufacturers the gears themselves. They are a large industrial pump supplier whose CEO is a Ford fan.

You can, but I would recommend not using cams to produce the 60's muscle car idle sound — they will cost you power, drivability and good manners in city traffic. It does not take a lot of camshaft to make power in these engines. You will be surprised how happy you will be with the increasingly hard to find 96-98 Cobra cams. Assuming you can not find the 96-98 cams then get something like a 106260 cam set from Comp. You can find those cam specs in the Cam and Valve Timing Spreadsheet <= click here.

The shop I am going to recommend to you is L&M Engines <= Clickable in Hatboro, PA. They are not next door to you but, they are reasonably close. More importantly, if I were going to have anyone build an engine for me it would definitely be Michael's guys at L&M, they are simply very, very, good! Call them up (215-675-8485) Michael typically answers, if not ask for him and explain what you have already explained above and then listen to what he suggests. BTW he uses Diamond pistons which are very good. I have a personal preference for Gibtec's but if I could not get Gibtec I would have no concerns about using Diamond.

Almost forgot. One of the tender spots on the OEM cylinder head is the exhaust seats. As long as the engine is getting freshened up it is worthwhile having the OEM valve seats replaced before they fail, While not a needed upgrade at your power level, if you need to start replacing valves just put Manley stainless valves in everywhere, they are excellent.


Ed
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Joe,

My guess, it's only a guess, is that the engine has either hurt a rod bearing or if it went lean as the original owner suspects, then hurt a piston. If you have hurt a piston then I would encourage you to use the least overbore necessary to repair the engine. If it is an iron block that would typically be a 0.010" overbore. If it is an aluminum block I would attempt to use a 1, 2, or 3 thousandths overbore and order pistons to match the overbore.

My next comment is going to sound confusing. Do not bore the block until you have the pistons and then bore the block based on the size of the delivered pistons. Here is an article on cylinder bore sizes to ponder before boring your block, click here => Why You Want to Use Standard Sized Bores. It is in reference to Aluminum blocks. Iron blocks have a bit more overbore capacity.

If the damage is to a rod bearing you have two choices, new crank or cut the original crank 0.010" undersize. If you cut the crank undersize, while you don't have to, I would recommend you have it re-nitrided to duplicate finished journal surface hardness of the original OEM crank. If the rod bearing failed you may also need a replacement connecting rod.

Engine shops, including the one I will recommend later, typically already have a working relationship with a piston supplier. If they will accept your request, I would recommend using Gibtec billet pistons in the rebuild. The shop I will recommend uses Diamond pistons which are very good.

Try not to use a piston with an offset pin. Offset pins are used to quiet piston slap when the engine is cold. Properly sized pistons, properly installed will not produce piston slap. Read Joe Goffin's Aluminator - Gibtec write up where he talks about the pistons and how quiet the engine is after initial startup. It is the same way today five years later with on center pin pistons.

Get the replacement chain guide pivots to prevent accidental breakage if you decide to use an aluminum block. Use a 3V or a GT500 oil pump. Same pump but the GT500 has a steel backing plate. Get a set of billet pump gears. Boundary Engineering <= clickable would be my first choice. Triangle Speed would be my second choice. Triangle Speed has the gears manufactured for them. Boundry designs and manufacturers the gears themselves. They are a large industrial pump supplier whose CEO is a Ford fan.

You can, but I would recommend not using cams to produce the 60's muscle car idle sound — they will cost you power, drivability and good manners in city traffic. It does not take a lot of camshaft to make power in these engines. You will be surprised how happy you will be with the increasingly hard to find 96-98 Cobra cams. Assuming you can not find the 96-98 cams then get something like a 106260 cam set from Comp. You can find those cam specs in the Cam and Valve Timing Spreadsheet <= click here.

The shop I am going to recommend to you is L&M Engines <= Clickable in Hatboro, PA. They are not next door to you but, they are reasonably close. More importantly, if I were going to have anyone build an engine for me it would definitely be Michael's guys at L&M, they are simply very, very, good! Call them up (215-675-8485) Michael typically answers, if not ask for him and explain what you have already explained above and then listen to what he suggests. BTW he uses Diamond pistons which are very good. I have a personal preference for Gibtec's but if I could not get Gibtec I would have no concerns about using Diamond.

Almost forgot. One of the tender spots on the OEM cylinder head is the exhaust seats. As long as the engine is getting freshened up it is worthwhile having the OEM valve seats replaced before they fail, While not a needed upgrade at your power level, if you need to start replacing valves just put Manley stainless valves in everywhere, they are excellent.


Ed
Much appreciated Ed thank you for your input. I will call them today to see what kind of money we are talking about.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Joe,

My guess, it's only a guess, is that the engine has either hurt a rod bearing or if it went lean as the original owner suspects, then hurt a piston. If you have hurt a piston then I would encourage you to use the least overbore necessary to repair the engine. If it is an iron block that would typically be a 0.010" overbore. If it is an aluminum block I would attempt to use a 1, 2, or 3 thousandths overbore and order pistons to match the overbore.

My next comment is going to sound confusing. Do not bore the block until you have the pistons and then bore the block based on the size of the delivered pistons. Here is an article on cylinder bore sizes to ponder before boring your block, click here => Why You Want to Use Standard Sized Bores. It is in reference to Aluminum blocks. Iron blocks have a bit more overbore capacity.

If the damage is to a rod bearing you have two choices, new crank or cut the original crank 0.010" undersize. If you cut the crank undersize, while you don't have to, I would recommend you have it re-nitrided to duplicate finished journal surface hardness of the original OEM crank. If the rod bearing failed you may also need a replacement connecting rod.

Engine shops, including the one I will recommend later, typically already have a working relationship with a piston supplier. If they will accept your request, I would recommend using Gibtec billet pistons in the rebuild. The shop I will recommend uses Diamond pistons which are very good.

Try not to use a piston with an offset pin. Offset pins are used to quiet piston slap when the engine is cold. Properly sized pistons, properly installed will not produce piston slap. Read Joe Goffin's Aluminator - Gibtec write up where he talks about the pistons and how quiet the engine is after initial startup. It is the same way today five years later with on center pin pistons.

Get the replacement chain guide pivots to prevent accidental breakage if you decide to use an aluminum block. Use a 3V or a GT500 oil pump. Same pump but the GT500 has a steel backing plate. Get a set of billet pump gears. Boundary Engineering <= clickable would be my first choice. Triangle Speed would be my second choice. Triangle Speed has the gears manufactured for them. Boundry designs and manufacturers the gears themselves. They are a large industrial pump supplier whose CEO is a Ford fan.

You can, but I would recommend not using cams to produce the 60's muscle car idle sound — they will cost you power, drivability and good manners in city traffic. It does not take a lot of camshaft to make power in these engines. You will be surprised how happy you will be with the increasingly hard to find 96-98 Cobra cams. Assuming you can not find the 96-98 cams then get something like a 106260 cam set from Comp. You can find those cam specs in the Cam and Valve Timing Spreadsheet <= click here.

The shop I am going to recommend to you is L&M Engines <= Clickable in Hatboro, PA. They are not next door to you but, they are reasonably close. More importantly, if I were going to have anyone build an engine for me it would definitely be Michael's guys at L&M, they are simply very, very, good! Call them up (215-675-8485) Michael typically answers, if not ask for him and explain what you have already explained above and then listen to what he suggests. BTW he uses Diamond pistons which are very good. I have a personal preference for Gibtec's but if I could not get Gibtec I would have no concerns about using Diamond.

Almost forgot. One of the tender spots on the OEM cylinder head is the exhaust seats. As long as the engine is getting freshened up it is worthwhile having the OEM valve seats replaced before they fail, While not a needed upgrade at your power level, if you need to start replacing valves just put Manley stainless valves in everywhere, they are excellent.


Ed
Ed i have 2 more questions if you have another second.........1. What are your thoughts on the Aluminator engines? I reached out to a builder today that can do an aluminator long block with new heads and spicy cams for just under $10,000 which i thought made more sense buying a brand new motor as opposed to reconditioning mine. My second question is do you have any idea what kind of money i can get for my long block the way it sits knowing there is a knock down low ?? I would be selling it with the supercharger as well since i am going TVS. Thank you for letting me pick your brain.

Joe
 

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Ed i have 2 more questions if you have another second.........1. What are your thoughts on the Aluminator engines? I reached out to a builder today that can do an aluminator long block with new heads and spicy cams for just under $10,000 which i thought made more sense buying a brand new motor as opposed to reconditioning mine. My second question is do you have any idea what kind of money i can get for my long block the way it sits knowing there is a knock down low ?? I would be selling it with the supercharger as well since i am going TVS. Thank you for letting me pick your brain.

Joe
There is not enough information to say if it is a good choice or not, Joe, although my guess is probably not. It is also worth remembering that the $10K engine is not a new engine, it is a reman and you can almost bet the builder bored it 0.010 "or more likely 0.020" oversize making it very undesirable.

Lets say you went to a salvage yard and bought a 4.6 4V out of a 2003 / 2005 Lincoln Aviator. You would get an Aluminator block and the best and final head castings that are called the "DC" casting. If the car was totaled and not hit in the engine bay you would have a good engine for likely well below $1K.

You need to freshen the heads with seats, guides and might as well do a little port work. If you use Livernois (highly recommended), you just spent $3K. Pistons, pins and rings add another #1.3K. New Manley rods $0.7K.. Bearings and balance the crank $0.5K. PAC 1223 Springs and retainers <$0.5K. Billet oil pump and cam drive chains and sprockets $1.5K. Gaskets and misc $1K. Total cost (w/o assembly) approximately $9.5K and this will be superior to the $10K alternative you spoke about. You will still need to get cams which is about $1.4K. Add another $2K for machine work and ARP studs along with some incidentals and you are at $13K for a very nice package that you still need to assemble.

I would caution you against the "spicy" cams you spoke of. Those are virtually always a mistake.


Ed


p.s. Almost forgot about the old engine. You basically have a crank, rods and heads all of which will need to be freshened. Probably not a lot of resale value especially if the engine burned a piston or spun one or more bearings. With spun bearings the crank is a $125 item and the incomplete rod set is maybe $250. Call a salvage yard and ask about their price for a set of used heads, discount it 20% and that is what yours are likely worth. Most guys want the aluminum block so a iron block is not a very desirable item — maybe $150 to $200.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
There is not enough information to say if it is a good choice or not, Joe, although my guess is probably not. It is also worth remembering that the $10K engine is not a new engine, it is a reman and you can almost bet the builder bored it 0.010 "or more likely 0.020" oversize making it very undesirable.

Lets say you went to a salvage yard and bought a 4.6 4V out of a 2003 / 2005 Lincoln Aviator. You would get an Aluminator block and the best and final head castings that are called the "DC" casting. If the car was totaled and not hit in the engine bay you would have a good engine for likely well below $1K.

You need to freshen the heads with seats, guides and might as well do a little port work. If you use Livernois (highly recommended), you just spent $3K. Pistons, pins and rings add another #1.3K. New Manley rods $0.7K.. Bearings and balance the crank $0.5K. PAC 1223 Springs and retainers <$0.5K. Billet oil pump and cam drive chains and sprockets $1.5K. Gaskets and misc $1K. Total cost (w/o assembly) approximately $9.5K and this will be superior to the $10K alternative you spoke about. You will still need to get cams which is about $1.4K. Add another $2K for machine work and ARP studs along with some incidentals and you are at $13K for a very nice package that you still need to assemble.

I would caution you against the "spicy" cams you spoke of. Those are virtually always a mistake.


Ed


p.s. Almost forgot about the old engine. You basically have a crank, rods and heads all of which will need to be freshened. Probably not a lot of resale value especially if the engine burned a piston or spun one or more bearings. With spun bearings the crank is a $125 item and the incomplete rod set is maybe $250. Call a salvage yard and ask about their price for a set of used heads, discount it 20% and that is what yours are likely worth. Most guys want the aluminum block so a iron block is not a very desirable item — maybe $150 to $200.
Ed thank you so much for your input. Your advice is always appreciated.

Joe
 
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