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From 2V to 4V build thread

1114 Views 58 Replies 3 Participants Last post by  KEVINS
I have a lot of individual threads started while researching 4V parts but now that I'm starting to accumulate parts and modify things I will simply post my build and any questions I have in this thread. Hopefully anyone that can help will chime in...

FYI, swapping to a Mach 1 intake is costing me a LOT of $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ but it will be worth it in the end:

New throttle body
New Fuel Rails
New Alternator...aarrgg..

Need help with this. My current 180amp alternator is too long so I need to know what high amp unit fits this Mach 1 intake? I see high amp units at Summit but not sure if they will actually fit or if there is a cheaper place to get one. Rock Auto doesn't have any high amp units.

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ks
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Got my silicone TB adapter along with some aluminum tubing and SST fuel line tubing today and got both parts made after work tonight.
Had to buy two different TB silicone adapters before I chose one that I could work with. Ended up with a 45* version then flexed it in the direction I needed. I needed a 60* but I couldn't find one for the tubing I was using. This will work fine tho. TIG welding and polishing to come later.

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SST Fuel lines for the rear of the rails are also done. The lines tie into a manifold in the fender.
The wire mess on the firewall needs to get organized still but that comes later.
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ks
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Got some SST exhaust pipes cut last night then decided I needed to conquer the water lines. I want an inline t-stat but I haven't seen anything I like. My radiator and hoses use -20an fitting so I want to maintain those fittings if possible. Also, those inline housings look really big so I wanted to see how small I can design one along with incorporating -20 fittings.
The below design is REAL crude but I can get the diameter down to 2.8" OD x 4.5" long while using screws to hold the halves together. The -20AN threads would be welded on but I'm not sure what I want to do with the outlet port yet b/c the outlet needs to split feeding each head. Instead of a single -20 I could create a port that uses two -10 fittings. If it feeds a manifold of sorts I need to make a creative design and a way to mount it so it looks good, etc. The other issue I have to design around is the weird approach angles to the heads from the tstat housing.. still pondering. Looks, ease of use/access, etc are important.

ks
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Very impressive design work, Kevin!

If you haven't taken a look at the Meziere inline T-Stat housings, you might want to take a moment to check them out. This is a pic of one that uses 1 ½ inch ID Radiator Hose barbs and a Chevy T-Stat.
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Like your design, it uses no internal bypass, so when employed, it requires three 0.1875" bypass holes in the T-Stat to operate properly or plumbing a head cooling bypass return into the line between the T-Stat and the radiator. At its largest diameter, it measures 2.7 inches. BTW your design is much better looking, but this is easier and quicker.

p.s. I will have that calculator up this weekend. The alligator population in my personal swamp has been a little higher than usual.
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Very impressive design work, Kevin!

If you haven't taken a look at the Meziere inline T-Stat housings, you might want to take a moment to check them out. This is a pic of one that uses 1 ½ inch ID Radiator Hose nipples and a Chevy T-Stat.
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Like your design, it uses no internal bypass, so when employed, it requires three 0.1875" bypass holes in the T-Stat to operate properly or plumbing a head cooling bypass return into the line between the T-Stat and the radiator. At its largest diameter, it measures 2.7 inches. BTW your design is much better looking, but this is easier and quicker.

p.s. I will have that calculator up this weekend. The alligator population in my personal swamp has been a little higher than usual.
I saw that piece. I wasn't sure of the dimensions, it looks larger than it apparently is, and for the price I thought about cutting off the hose ends and welding -20an threads on the middle sections. Now that I know what size it is, that's definitely a possibility since it saves me machine time. I'm working in CAD now on finding a decent location and plumbing options for connecting both heads to it. I have a novel idea but things are tight so it's taking many trips to the car plus it doesn't look that great so far....

I hear Leopards like to eat alligators...=)

ks
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Does anyone know if I can still get the hole plugs on the bottom of the Mach 1 intake?

I wanted to remove these when I have it cleaned but I can't find these specific plugs or what size these are to find new ones.

EDIT:
Never mind. I think I answered my own question. I measured 57mm and 2.25" but I don't see an offering for 57mm so 2.25" it is.

Freeze Plugs <= clicky


ks

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Most people cut the bottom off, port the intake and cut the runners down, then weld a flat plate on the bottom. But i am noticing that you seem to be the kind of guy who doesn't do what "most" people do, so carry on Sir. Good for you for marching to your own beat.
Those plugs might be epoxied in, as they don't just pop out easily.
And thanks for the link for the new plugs.
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There is a thread on intake manifold designs (<= clicky) where there is a manifold engineer present while others have done flow analysis on some of their ideas and one thing that I have taken from that thread is that a LOT of things make sense but when tested it REALLY Fks up the flow..BAAAAD. I have seen pics of these Mach 1 manifolds cut, hacked, welded all because it makes sense in theory but I bet the flow is completely screwed up.. There is a 4V intake shootout on Youtube and this manifold produced the best torque, HP, etc as-is up to about 6500 compared to any manifold on the market or from the factory. No way am I going to mess with a good thing since my car will be operating exactly in that RPM range.

I don't mind doing what someone else does but the thing I concluded a long time ago was that nobody "engineers" their setup. They simply buy what someone else bought and the lineage continues.

Prime example: Turbo pipe size from the headers. Why are all of them 2.5" OD? I have two friends that make 2000HP: one is a 650ci BBC and uses 2.5" collectors and the other is a 427SBC and also uses 2.5" pipes. So why do the turbo kits for cars that only make 500, 700, 1000hp also need 2.5" pipes?

Answer: They don't. I read somewhere that the pipes only need to be a little larger than the exhaust valve. So the pipes I made for my car use 2 1/8" collectors that neck down to 2" OD then connect to the turbos. These smaller pipes allows a LOT more room and easier bends, etc and fabbing them up was a breeze.

People follow the fast guys and mimic the parts even tho their car makes a fraction of the HP. This is why I question what is offered on the market and if it doesn't meet design requirements I try and fix it.

Just wait to see if I get to design my own IC end tanks for a new IC I am looking into. You should see some of the flow analysis with IC end tanks offered on the market.... Not too good but that's what is on the market and people trust they work correctly.

Yea, I will probably seal/glue the plugs in after it's powder coated..

ks
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You. are spot on, Kevin ...
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More tools, more materials so more pics...

....and so it begins... After some thought I have an idea for the vacuum lines that will be plumbed to the intake cover so I started removing everything I don't need. This will take several iterations of welding and grinding but the inside and outside surfaces will still maintain the proper contours when done.

I also decided to convert the heater core hose to use a -12AN fitting that will then attach to a tall tube that seals in the rear head plug. I underestimated how large a -12 fitting was so the tube I made hits the fuel line fitting but I knew it was gonna be close. I have several ideas to fall back on so not a big deal. The tube still needs a groove for a hold-down clamp but I did get the oring grooves in it.

ks
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Not enough room to take coolant from the rear of the head instead of the top? I know it's tight back there.
Not enough room to take coolant from the rear of the head instead of the top? I know it's tight back there.
No clue, but if it leaks it's a lot more work to fix it and I'm not taking that chance.

kws
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No clue, but if it leaks it's a lot more work to fix it and I'm not taking that chance.

kws
I've never had one leak, but you raise a good point.
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OK, for the goal-oriented readers, here is the calculator image, the real McCoy is at the end of the post in XL format. You get to change the yellow variables, i.e., the Scalar and the IAT1 temps. The scalar is dimensionless, and the IAT1 temps are in Fahrenheit. You choose a scalar to adjust the boost figure to what you want and then read the pre-IC, post-compressor IAT2 temps directly.
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To provide the IC design engineer with the necessary data to properly size your IC, he will also need to know the mass of air being cooled, along with the IAT2 post compressor, pre-IC inlet air temperature, and the target outlet air temperature. The first number is the bottom right black box above, and the second number is what you want for a cooled charge temp.

The air mass is relatively easy to calculate if you use Black2003Cobra’s Volumetric and Mass-Air-Flow Calculator, which you have used previously. There is an additional benefit you can pull out of the calculator, and that is estimated horsepower.

It turns out it takes ~10 lbs of air per minute or ~600 lbs of air per hour to make 100 hp. If we go to the Mass Air Flow Rate Section of the calculator and step the boost from 22 psi to 30 psi at the top of the first table, it will update the boost figures in the bottom table. They will look like this:

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I believe you indicated you wanted a 6500 rpm or possibly a max 7000 rpm operating range for your engine, Kevin. With an air consumption of 10 lbs of air per minute for 100 hp, and your engine processing 89.4 lbs per minute at 6500 rpm and 22 psi, your FWHP will be ~ 890 hp. When you step the boost up to 30 psi, your FWHP will increase to ~1090 hp. Because we think in terms of RWHP and the commonly used factor for drive line loss is 15%, the 1090 number, in this example, would approximate ~925 hp at the tire.

There are caveats! The obvious one is being properly tuned. The not-so-obvious one has to do with IAT2 temps and the need to pull timing to avoid detonation at elevated IAT2 Temps.

Let's dig into the compressed charge air temps a bit. In the attached calculator, I have used dimensionality constants to allow us to input the air temp and pressure in the more common Imperial System Units that we use daily and read the results in the same familiar Imperial System Units.

To get the temperature of the compressed charge in the intake, we need to use a restated version of The Combined Gas Law, which (I am sure) everyone remembers from High School Physics and Chemistry as;
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With a little algebraic sleight of hand and a few assumptions to solve for T2, this can be restated as;
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Where T is temperature measured in degrees Kelvin (˚ K), p is pressure measured in Newtons per square meter (N/m2), and V is volume measured in cubic meters (m3). While useful in the SI system for engineering, mere mortals like us tend to use a more familiar Imperial System. The Imperial System represents T, in degrees Fahrenheit (˚ F), with p in pounds per square inch (psi) and V volume in an equally proletariat cubic feet (ft3) or, for us automotive types, cubic inches (in3). I have hidden metrics like the ratio of the molar heat capacities of the gas being observed/measured. ‘Stuff’ like that does not need to be visible here.

Soooo … this calculator is constructed to use our commonly employed temperature, pressure, and volume units rather than the SI units more common in the engineering space. It is a good approximation, but an approximation because we are attempting to measure what is a quasi-static adiabatic compression, which is the result of a compressor with an unknown adiabatic compression efficiency that is less than 100%

Some accommodations become necessary for simplification and calculator development. When you use the calculator, you change manifold pressure by changing the scalar value. I have provided a table of scalars in the calculator to help you find the scalar necessary to specify your boost level and discharge temp. While not exact, the calculator is more than adequate to help the IC engineer calculate IC parameters to cool the charge. It is also a good barometer for determining when too much is no longer smart.

A couple of closing thoughts. While we can continue to increase boost, almost without limit the interesting dynamic that begins to play a progressively larger role as boost increases is intercooler charge cooling effectiveness. This is what I was referring to in the previous paragraph. IC performance is size limited, and in large part, that means by the physical space we have available in the engine compartment for the IC.

Once we run out of physical space, we can do things like further chilling of the coolant in an air-to-water unit or increasing coolant flow through the IC, but we have essentially run out of IC cooling capacity. These sorts of window dressing changes tend to be marginal improvements in the bigger picture. So what to do?

If you still want to pursue additional boost and power, it means it will become necessary to reduce engine timing, which, as luck would have it, costs power. This quickly becomes an exercise in diminishing returns. As we back off the timing to accommodate a higher boost and its associated charge temperatures, that the IC system can no longer as efficiently sink away, we also take away throttle response and, of course, some power also. This sort of dance with the devil has an increasingly disappointing seat of the pants and emptiness in the checking account feel that is worth paying attention to so you can avoid it.

The seat of the pants dyno (or at the track, et slip) usually begins to show smaller improvements with each additional increment of boost. This is a very important warning sign! Continued exploration down that path will lead to detonation and broken parts. How badly can detonation hurt the engine? Here is a pic of a Teksid block that detonated too much. BTW the fuel wasn’t gas; it was Methanol!

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Here is a view from the rear of the block;

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Detonation is not a far-fetched ethereal sort of event. It is as real as a heart attack and equally devastating, except for your engine and wallet. Even more significant is the fact that the only fuel more detonation sensitive than gasoline is nitromethane — think about that one for a moment!

Remember, as you engage with your individual builds, you are not involved in a laboratory experiment. This is real-world stuff, and it is only inches away from you (and your wallet) on the other side of the firewall. Don’t abuse it, and it won’t abuse you. There is no trophy for a pile of expensive but broken parts — that didn’t need to break.

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Ed,
I haven't read that in detail but I skimmed just enough to feel more certain that my IC was definitely over-worked despite the 1500 HP rating by the MFR. I can't wait to put pencil to paper to see where the numbers point in an IC requirement...

You should add that info the TToC. I can see it getting buried in this thread and that is info that should not be taken lightly..

KS
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More pics:
I had a novel idea on how to gain more clearance with the -12AN heater core fitting I made and here it is. Just a few simple angle cuts then rotate the pieces on the cuts to realign them and viola.

It's not real pretty but it was easy, gained me more than enough clearance and still maintains the ID for the water flow.

Even made the hold down clamp. TIGging to come later.

ks

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Imagine if it was easier

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Nothing wrong with your method at all. Just a different perspective.
I TIG weld lots of aluminum myself so interested in how this turns out (y)
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What about taking the heater core feed from the driver's head in the rear TOP instead of the pass side?
2v takes hot coolant from pass side but drivers head is the hot spot on 4v
You are duplicating 2v cooling system but it is opposite on 4v.
Take hottest coolant from rear top of drivers head and send that to heater core, then you can return heater core to wherever you want?
Just a thought
What about taking the heater core feed from the driver's head in the rear TOP instead of the pass side?
2v takes hot coolant from pass side but drivers head is the hot spot on 4v
You are duplicating 2v cooling system but it is opposite on 4v.
Take hottest coolant from rear top of drivers head and send that to heater core, then you can return heater core to wherever you want?
Just a thought
I looked into that and it's possible but right now I don't have the room to run the coolant lines across the firewall from the drivers head. Too many wires and fuel lines and the distance between the intake and firewall is already tight as-is. Once I get things more organized I planned to look into it since this fitting will fit into any of those access ports.

In addition to the existing wires I want to see if I can somehow hard wire the Safeguard knock detector into the coil harness but that adds a lot more wires where I don't have room.
I looked at buddies 2V and commented again at how many wires are along my firewall compared to his so I will be evaluating the stock wire routing vs what I'm dealing with to try and slim things down.

ks
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