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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
With all this talk about chips and tuning, how do tuners know we're not experiencing detonation?

I hear all this talk about dialing in AF ratios. What gets me is that you can have the most beautiful AF ratio in the west, but what good is it if you still detonate? Anyone who says a perfect AF ratio cannot detonate is lying to you...

how you ask:

-too low of an octane rating
-too advanced of a timing curve
-too hot of spark plug range

So, how does a tuner know we're not detonating? I thought I read somewhere 03's don't have a knock sensor because the loud Eaton would keep tripping it...is this correct?
 

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Experience bro.

For instance, its common that a Ligthning for instance wont detonate on 14-15 degrees of timing on the street with 91, heaviliy oxygenated gasoline here in CA. However, guys back East get 93-94 out of the pump and can go right to 18 to 19 degrees of timing. This makes it difficiult for someone here in CA who wants to run a vendors chip back east who has no first hand experience with our fuel. Ive seen trucks with Vendor A,B and C chips pulling some scary A/F #'s like 13.0 with 17 degrees of timing :eek:

Find a local tuner who has experience tuning Cobras with your local fuel and air quality. Also, using a colder plug is a safe guard. I run NGK BR7EF's which are 2 steps colder then stock. I take a performance hit but its better to be safe the sorry.

You are correct, theres more to a safe tune then just the A/F ratio.
 

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Good thread.....

I think I have best of both worlds, my car is tuned in the low 14 mid 13 range right now, and my plugs look perfect. Never had heard a ping or studder in my car in boost. Im going to get my tune richened up here very soon.

You can run alot more boost with less timing, when you start walking the fine line between alot of timing and more boost is when you run into excessive knock, especially with lower octane pump gas fuels.

Im not sure why ford didnt put a knock sensor on the 03, knock sensors are programed to only pick up certain frequency's and vibrations. Unless ford experimented and had lots of problem with "false knock" and never could get a handle on it. I.E their safeguard was the 10:1 stock tune.

If your car is detonating, if you have any experience in the modding field or have heard a car studder in boost or higher rpm's be suspicious and start looking things over. Ping is also another good giveaway, and the car lurching somewhat, which may be an attempt by the ecu to pull timing. With no knock sensor im not sure if these cars will pull timing when it runs into a possible lean condition.
 

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Alot of us who began supercharging our 96-98 Modulars generally ended up disabling the stock knock sensors because they were pulling timing. Infact, theres been cases where the knocks were removing timing on n/a snakes.

The Lightning and Cobra dont use knock sensors simply because the mod motors in general are noisey. Add the Eaton to the mix and it probably drove the engineers crazy.

I would like to see something like the Buick GN guys run. Its a computer with a digital readout that displays when knock is sensed, how much timing its pulled, etc.

The guys at Smart Spark are local to me and ive thought about stopping by and having them develop a unit for Lightnings and Cobras. If theres any interest in it, i can work on it.
 

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I ftuner is using a dyno while programming, should notice a big power loss if and when significant detonation occurs.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
PhillyCobra said:
I ftuner is using a dyno while programming, should notice a big power loss if and when significant detonation occurs.
Very true and probably the best way to track down detonation w/ out a knock sensor...but it still is not 100%...
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Venomous Mofo said:
I would like to see something like the Buick GN guys run. Its a computer with a digital readout that displays when knock is sensed, how much timing its pulled, etc.
IMO an aftermarket knock sensor is more important than a wideband...but if you had both, you'd have a killer complete tuning package.

http://www.jandssafeguard.com/index.html

This is probably something similar to what the GN boys run, unlike a stock knock sensor that simply pulls timing, it also shows you on a digital dash mounted display that you are detonating and to what degree. I'm not sure how one is installed, but I bet it won't be pretty since 03's don't come w/ a stock one. I bet it would involve tapping into the block which I would never do....
 

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doubleblack said:
IMO an aftermarket knock sensor is more important than a wideband...but if you had both, you'd have a killer complete tuning package.

http://www.jandssafeguard.com/index.html

This is probably something similar to what the GN boys run, unlike a stock knock sensor that simply pulls timing, it also shows you on a digital dash mounted display that you are detonating and to what degree. I'm not sure how one is installed, but I bet it won't be pretty since 03's don't come w/ a stock one. I bet it would involve tapping into the block which I would never do....
These guys are no more then 10 mins away from me. Im going to stop by this week and have a chat with them. See what they think. Ill need to find a cobra local to orange county incase they need to look at it.
 

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it's somthing you just know with experience. I know how much timing a motor should take, and I creep up on it. You can feel the motor rattle before it detonates, and after you tune a couple hundred cars you can just feel when it's right and when it's not. You can also tell a lot by the sound. It's not all in the feel, I do use other tools and techniques that certainly help in the tuning also. You can't just rely on your senses for a really, REALLY loud 600+ RWHP car.

Brian
 

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Apten said:
it's somthing you just know with experience. I know how much timing a motor should take, and I creep up on it. You can feel the motor rattle before it detonates, and after you tune a couple hundred cars you can just feel when it's right and when it's not. You can also tell a lot by the sound. It's not all in the feel, I do use other tools and techniques that certainly help in the tuning also. You can't just rely on your senses for a really, REALLY loud 600+ RWHP car.

Brian
Anyone find anything on the knock sensors for our cars. I wish I had a way to monitor it. You can fill up with bad gas and boom your car goes because of detination.
 

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drkchk03svt said:
Anyone find anything on the knock sensors for our cars. I wish I had a way to monitor it. You can fill up with bad gas and boom your car goes because of detination.
There are no knock sensors on the 03/04 Cobra
 

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Apten said:
it's somthing you just know with experience. I know how much timing a motor should take, and I creep up on it. You can feel the motor rattle before it detonates, and after you tune a couple hundred cars you can just feel when it's right and when it's not. You can also tell a lot by the sound. It's not all in the feel, I do use other tools and techniques that certainly help in the tuning also. You can't just rely on your senses for a really, REALLY loud 600+ RWHP car.

Brian
Amen to that Brian !
 

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doubleblack said:
IMO an aftermarket knock sensor is more important than a wideband...but if you had both, you'd have a killer complete tuning package.

http://www.jandssafeguard.com/index.html

This is probably something similar to what the GN boys run, unlike a stock knock sensor that simply pulls timing, it also shows you on a digital dash mounted display that you are detonating and to what degree. I'm not sure how one is installed, but I bet it won't be pretty since 03's don't come w/ a stock one. I bet it would involve tapping into the block which I would never do....
The GN "computer" being referred to is the Scanmaster. It simply takes readings from the factory knock sensor and computer, and relays them to the digital box. The box records the speed and RPM the highest knock and lowest (leanest) O2 readings (non-wideband) were experienced. It also displays things like TPS, IAC, fuel trim, etc.
Something like a Scanmaster hasn't been developed for the Cobras b/c we don't have a knock sensor to begin with. You would have to go with something completely aftermarket, along the lines of the website listed above. With all of the noise these motors make, it would be pretty damn difficult. Some of the GTP guys figured out a way to use the LS1 scanmasters, but they're also getting a lot of false knock readings b/c of the roots blower. Stack a roots blower on top of a noisy DOHC motor and you have real problems. If someone could figure out how to safely and accurately tune out the "false" frequencies, they could make a pretty penny on these cars!
 

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broke, package for you to your door tomorrow...

broke7 said:
Good thread.....

I think I have best of both worlds, my car is tuned in the low 14 mid 13 range right now, and my plugs look perfect. Never had heard a ping or studder in my car in boost. Im going to get my tune richened up here very soon.

You can run alot more boost with less timing, when you start walking the fine line between alot of timing and more boost is when you run into excessive knock, especially with lower octane pump gas fuels.

Im not sure why ford didnt put a knock sensor on the 03, knock sensors are programed to only pick up certain frequency's and vibrations. Unless ford experimented and had lots of problem with "false knock" and never could get a handle on it. I.E their safeguard was the 10:1 stock tune.

If your car is detonating, if you have any experience in the modding field or have heard a car studder in boost or higher rpm's be suspicious and start looking things over. Ping is also another good giveaway, and the car lurching somewhat, which may be an attempt by the ecu to pull timing. With no knock sensor im not sure if these cars will pull timing when it runs into a possible lean condition.
give me some data bro...hermann :beerchug:
 
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