Intake for 4V = 1000RWHP ... just thinking aloud and planning ahead..

I just saw this vid with a 8 second 4V with this intake.. What does one of these need to flow that much HP anything special?

KEVINS said:

I just saw this vid with a 8 second 4V with this intake.. What does one of these need to flow that much HP anything special?


View attachment 176507

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KEVINS said:

I just saw this vid with a 8 second 4V with this intake.. What does one of these need to flow that much HP anything special?


View attachment 176507

Click to expand...

Kevin,

The short way home with excellent fit and support for all things like IAC valves, PCV etc is the factory Cobra n/a manifold you show in the pic above. Everything fits and hood clearance is excellent, even with a spacer like in the picture. Power is not bad either, although he doesn't say what boost he is running. As big a factor as manifold flow is intercooler heat sinking capability. When you run the kinds of boost you have and I suspect will do again, there is a lot of heat to be pulled out of the intake charge. I am presuming you already have a significant IC capability.

The next step after this would be a fabricated manifold. I would give Shelby Mike a call and ask for his help with the intake flanges. He has all the data for his own billet manifolds and just might whhip up a set of flanges for you to build a welded manifold. Intake runners are just straight tubes squeezed to oval on one end. the plenum is similar, i.e. a round tube squeezed into an oval form and welded to the intake tubes with a billet throttle body plate welded to the front and a back welded to the plenum to seal it up. This is Mikes webpage => https://www.shelbymikeracing.com/

Ah, I never saw the spacer under the lid...There are plenty used ones available, too.

Specs of my Treadstone IC are dual 2.5" inlets and a 3.5" outlet
IAT's on the high boost pulls were 130* with 80* ambient air temp
Pressure drop on the 39psi was 1.3psi

Edit:
Crap I just saw what the bottom portion of that intake looks like and there is some large square box under it which won't work on my car b/c I have a wire tuck and ALL the gazillion wires including for the Safe Guard wires are packed under the intake..



ks

I've seen Richard Holdners vid before and they are educational, a lot of theories put to the test with good technical results. I loved his idea for adjustable runner lengths. I could have a blast doing things like that if I had resources...


While I am waiting for used 4V heads to be shipped to me can someone tell me if the distance shown in the pic below between the 2V heads are the same as 4V heads? If they are I can move forward on collecting data on intake heights.




ks

KEVINS said:

... I've also been studying removing the divider then how to blend the opening to an elliptical TB. The casting is really thin at the edges where the elliptical opening needs to be cut away so I may make a spacer to go from an elliptical opening (TB) to an oval opening (manifold). Still thinking ...

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Your observation about the thin casting sections, when you machine out the divider for the OEM two-bladed TB design, is spot on, Kevin. There is insufficient material present in the OEM casting to allow the machining operation to directly support the elliptical TB you are wanting to use. The correct and best way out of the dilemma is the use of a half-inch or three-quarter-inch thick spacer that blends the elliptical throttle body shape to the flat top and flat bottom-sided oval that you will have after machining out the divider for the two-bladed OEM throttle body.

The three-quarter-inch thick spacer will give you additional space to smoothly blend from the elliptical to the flat top and flat bottom-sided oval that you will have after machining out the throat of the OEM two-bladed throttle body mounting flange. You will probably need access to, or buy spindle time on a five-axis CNC mill to do the job, but if you choose to go that route, it will be very difficult to improve upon your finished solution.

BTW check out eBay (I know, I know); you will find any number of elliptically bladed throttle bodies in near new condition in the $300 range instead of the $600 brand-new price range. That will give you additional monies to throw at the elliptical to oval TB adapter.

I get a kick out of the intercooler guys. We buy intercoolers to cool an incoming air charge from a compressor. To properly size the intercooler, we need to know its capacity for cooling. The number of inlets and the number of outlets are interesting but non-responsive to the inquiry about heat transfer capacity and transfer speed. While we certainly do not want an airflow restriction again, airflow is non-responsive to the inquiry about heat transfer capacity.

The interesting part of the problem is that they have engineers internal to their firms that use this very information to design the IC, yet they choose not to publish the data, and not to share the data with potential buyers who are attempting to "right size" their intercooler choice so they only need to purchase one time! This sort of behavior is like going to a supplier of fasteners to buy a bolt, and the fasteners have no sizing or thread pitch data available for the customer to make his selection — it is stupid in the extreme!

I suspect (I hope I am right) that if you could get to the engineering design crowd, they could provide the needed answers. It is just one more battle we need to wage to properly build one of these engines.

Kevin,
A member on one of the modular Facebook groups posted this today and thought I would share. It is relevant to your iac issue as well as the intake height issue. You can see the short runner modification and how it raises the intake floor a decent amount from stock. It is also a very clean solution to the remote iac setup.

KEVINS said:

From a marketing point a view I would think that an IC core company could easier promote the quality of their cores if they published the efficiency and at the same time weed out the inferior parts in the market. If I had developed a great core I would certainly be promoting it with data.

It was suggested that Bell Intercoolers (<= clicky) makes good cores so I am looking their cores over. I see that I can order just about any size I want and I have my eye on several so when I get more time I will look them over in detail.

ks

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I have already talked to the engineering guys over at Bell. They talk engineer! Initially, the discussion started with the usual how much HP are we talking about dialog and I switched it to how much heat we are creating and how much we want to get rid of. The tone and the quality of information immediately took a step up and the individual at Bell asked me which company I worked for because he said the questioning was what he expected in an OEM engineering inquiry from one of their OEM customer's engineering team members.

Once you get past the how much horsepower issues then you can have a much more productive discussion. The two metrics that they will look for are charge temperature and mass flow. Here is the link to the Ideal Gas Law Calculator <=clickable. If the amount of substance molar value is problematic email me or give me a call and I'll help. One of Black2003Cobra's calculators will be quite helpful in determining pounds of air which is the other metric the engineers at Bell will ask for. Here is the link to the calculator => Volumetric and Mass Air Flow Calculator

Getting back to calculations:
I modified Black2003Cobra's spreadsheet to allow more info on higher boost values. I do not expect to need more than 28psi if this engine build is efficient but I have seen some stock terminator gents running 32psi so I wanted to plan for that size IC if I can fit it. The values I am looking at are in RED in the below tables.

I'm not sure what values Bell will be asking for but the values I figure are below (feel free to correct me):

I figure 1400FWHP => 1100RWHP
What other info will they need?

Volume Flow rate: 1600CFM
Mass Air Flow: 120lb/min





Given the Ideal Gas Law equation here are my unknowns:

• P — Pressure, in pascal;
• V — Volume in cubic meters;
• n — Number of moles;
• T — Temperature in kelvin; and
• R — Ideal gas constant. (8.314)

I'm gonna need your help, Ed. I'm not sure what Bell will be solving for in order to determine core size. I'm guessing Volume.

I'm figuring ambient air temp to be around 90F but I'm not sure if the temp they are wanting is air temp before or after the IC or ambient temp, etc. Ideally air temp after the IC is the same as ambient..

KS