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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
KB Chip came a day early ! So I installed and datalogged with AutoTap Palm. Initial impression was it pulled very hard and I lost no lowend TQ from the Diablo Tune I had. Although I loved the Diablo street tune (19lbs boost on 94 Sunoco and no Ping).

Anyway 1st thing I noticed on start up was my fuel pressure was almost double at idle. From 39 to around 61 psi. So the Fuel PSI is definately up. My car is almost identical to Rich's(Hammer) even the same color. I have a Metco 6# lower and I think that is the only difference. That being said with the 3.25 upper and 6# lower I see 20-21#s depending on OAT and conditons.

I will attach 2 datalog runs converted to Excel Format.

THey show some interesting Information regarding Timing, RPM MPH, MAF rate, and Fuel PSI. I have highlighted the 4th gear Pull areas in RED. The rest of the RPM range are different gears.

I thought the MAF pegging was fixed and I may be wrong but in the datalog it is Maxing out or my Autotap quits reading past a certain parameter, not sure. THe Topend of this KB tune is where I noticed the difference. It and on my 4th hard run I finally got serious clutch slippage and took it home.

1st Run with No BAP (0%)
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 · (Edited)
2nd DataLog

This was the 2nd 4th gear run with BAP set to Halfway and Boost-a-spark Maxed still working fine with the Plasma Booster and seeing 21lb of boost. No audible pinging with 94 Sunoco.

Jon L
 

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Snake Charmer
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With the latest release of the windows autotap software 1.4 I think it is, you can display MAF voltage as well. Where its pegging though seems about right but from what I hear isnt really an issue, when the MAF voltage goes out of range, if the tune is done right the car assumes a failed MAF and will rely on table data and other sensor input so it wont run lean. I would be curious to see what your old diablo timing was like at similar RPM ranges.

I borrowed my autotap/laptop to a friend so not sure where my timing is but my power levels seem low. Im a tad rich as well and will be bumping boost to 19 n3tx week for a trip to dyno and if all is good will goto 21 and see how the A/F is myself. I still have stock inj though.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Yes I have both the Windows version and Palm. Palm works great with some software tweeking and it does show MAF voltage. Where you see the MAXed flow rate it is showing 5.0v

Here is the Diablo street graph timing is about 2 degrees less at the WOT 4th gear RPM range.

Jon L
 

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Dustoff said:
Yes I have both the Windows version and Palm. Palm works great with some software tweeking and it does show MAF voltage. Where you see the MAXed flow rate it is showing 5.0v

Here is the Diablo street graph timing is about 2 degrees less at the WOT 4th gear RPM range.

Jon L
Dang, Diablo was running less timing huh? I guess I expected the KB setup to be less. I am curious to see where mine is due to my low numbers.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Shadowgray03 said:
Dang, Diablo was running less timing huh? I guess I expected the KB setup to be less. I am curious to see where mine is due to my low numbers.
Yes, I excepted that too. My Diablo Race side has around 22-23 and Pulls great but no FUel PSI.

I am very curious as to the timing on the KB Race side. It came with a warning sheet saying the "Shootout" tune is strictly race fuel 100 octane or better depending on boost level and that the spark timing is designed to "Lock-In" whatever that means. I guess it blocks out certain conditions so the timing is constant.
 

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Dustoff said:


I thought the MAF pegging was fixed and I may be wrong but in the datalog it is Maxing out or my Autotap quits reading past a certain parameter, not sure.

1st Run with No BAP (0%)
482.22 grams/sec flow equates to ~1736 KG/HR. The stock MAF electronics on the '03 max at ~1740 KG/HR so its definitely pegging the mass air electronics. Time for a new mass air sensor :)

Tony
 

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Re: Re: KB Chip Installed !!!

LXH89 said:
482.22 grams/sec flow equates to ~1736 KG/HR. The stock MAF electronics on the '03 max at ~1740 KG/HR so its definitely pegging the mass air electronics. Time for a new mass air sensor :)

Tony
Why would you need a new MAF? Competent tuners will work around this issue and give you a superior tune compared to dealing with micky mouse aftermarket MAF's.
 

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It will be interesting to see what develops.

I agree that aftermarket MAFs seem to casue a lot of people a lot of trouble.

Tuning "around" a pegged meter is not as easy as some make it sound.

My limitied understang is that once the meter is pegged, the tuner makes adjustments to certain maps, you are kind of running a speed density system at that point. If they change the maps correctly for one set of atmospheric conditions, it is not neccessarily optimum for other conditions.

Then there is the issues of which maps did they change, and did they get to all of them the computer may default to when the meter is pegged?

I think the meter from the new GT will be a big help. I wonder how long until it is available?

JT
 

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JT said:
Tuning "around" a pegged meter is not as easy as some make it sound.

My limitied understang is that once the meter is pegged, the tuner makes adjustments to certain maps, you are kind of running a speed density system at that point. If they change the maps correctly for one set of atmospheric conditions, it is not neccessarily optimum for other conditions.

Then there is the issues of which maps did they change, and did they get to all of them the computer may default to when the meter is pegged?

I think the meter from the new GT will be a big help. I wonder how long until it is available?

JT
I hear ya, but is any tune "optimal"? In other words, if we use an aftermarket MAF it still only works in the 0-5v range, the difference is that now at any given voltage the aftermarket MAF is flowing more air and this can throw things off such as load tables etc. In reality all any tune is doing is kludging in some data to work around our problems, some do it by addressing one issue and other by addressing other issues. From where I sit though it the tuner is competent and can tune around me having to spend $$$$ on a new MAF im all for it :)
 

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Dustoff I am interested to see how much timing the KB Tune has as well. My race tune on my Diablo has 25.8 total timing @ WOT, not even sure if its beneficial over standard timing curves, some say these cars dont need any more timing while some say they do!Interested to see how your KB race tune compares, albeit I still have the eaton !
 

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trey193 said:
Dustoff I am interested to see how much timing the KB Tune has as well. My race tune on my Diablo has 25.8 total timing @ WOT, not even sure if its beneficial over standard timing curves, some say these cars dont need any more timing while some say they do!Interested to see how your KB race tune compares, albeit I still have the eaton !
I think its going to be hard to compare apples to apples on this one. When you say 25 deg at WOT, what RPM was that at? Timing is based on many factors, coolant temp, TPS, RPM, AIT1 and 2 etc etc. I would thinks with a cool engine on a cool day your car will run more timing than a hot engine on a hot/humid day. It is interesting nontheless to see the various ranges people are reporting with various tunes.
 

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Shadowgray03 said:
I hear ya, but is any tune "optimal"? In other words, if we use an aftermarket MAF it still only works in the 0-5v range, the difference is that now at any given voltage the aftermarket MAF is flowing more air and this can throw things off such as load tables etc. In reality all any tune is doing is kludging in some data to work around our problems, some do it by addressing one issue and other by addressing other issues. From where I sit though it the tuner is competent and can tune around me having to spend $$$$ on a new MAF im all for it :)
The MAF Electronics decide what voltage is reported for a given flow rate. It is different depending on the MAF electronic calibration. An aftermarket meter such as a Pro-M can have electronics set to peak at say 2500KG/Hr versus 1740 KG/Hr as on a stock 03. A tuner can take the flow sheet, and reprogram the eec's transfer function to match it and there wont be any driveability concerns. You get driveability issues when the MAF Transfer function in the eec does not match transfer function of the electronics.

You want to know how Pro-M makes a stock eec work with a non-stock injector size? They take the stock transfer function for that particular eec, scale to the new injector size by taking each flow point multiplied by the new injector size / old injector size then match the electronics of the MAF to that curve. It's as simple as that!

A Tuner can't make MAF electronics read more than they are physically capable of reading. He can, however, as JT suggested, make fuel adjustments at the point where the MAF maxes and make assumptions as to what is needed by the motor. It's far easier to just get another MAF that will measure more flow then match the transfer.

Tony
 

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LXH89 said:
A Tuner can't make MAF electronics read more than they are physically capable of reading. He can, however, as JT suggested, make fuel adjustments at the point where the MAF maxes and make assumptions as to what is needed by the motor. It's far easier to just get another MAF that will measure more flow then match the transfer.

Tony
Maybe easier according to guys who make and sell these aftermarket MAF's but I have heard of dozens of tuning horror stories from various tuners that were quickly remidied by going to a stock MAF.
 

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Shadowgray03 said:
Maybe easier according to guys who make and sell these aftermarket MAF's but I have heard of dozens of tuning horror stories from various tuners that were quickly remidied by going to a stock MAF.
Can you elaborate which tuners and what horror stories?

Tony
 

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You guys talking about timing Jim is onlyu running 19 degrees in my car. and there is no pinging what so ever. on 94 Sunco.:)
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
My other initial issue with the KB tune is the idle Fuel Pressure. I went from stock 38-39psi to 61-63psi. It is great to have Fuel PSI, but I really don't need 60PSI at idle. THis is without the BAP engaged. So the Chip is doing its job, sort of !

The MAF pegging issue I have been assured it handled with KBs tuning in the correct default tables. The Car definately pulls harder in the topend. I Know Joe (JDs) has been able to tune around the pegging issue and I think Hammer even mentioned on the 640 HPrun his meter was not pegging with the Autologic tune.

So I believe some tuners do have a handle on the MAF issue.

Jon L
 

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ShadowGrey , Rick @ Amazon was saying with the race tunes at WOT and above 4000 you should see 25-26 total timing in the race tune, I think stock is 20-23 not sure and also not sure if conditions play a roll in total timing but I know that Rick sat up my race tune for 25-26 total and @ the mod shootout I was seeing 25.8-25.9 @WOT with 2KBILL's Hellion. I dont think my car runs much better if any on the race side than it did before with just a good street tune.
 

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LXH89 said:
Can you elaborate which tuners and what horror stories?

Tony
I would rather not name any names but suffice it to say I have heard of many, the most recent is still going on and has been for many weeks now and at last count I beleive they are on the 8th tune and have tried the MAF (pro-m) in both draw and blow through setups. Now, perhaps its just a bad meter and they are unlucky but I certainly dont hear of these issues when people stick with the stock MAF. After all, most people with the KB are using the stock MAF and are putting down very respectable numbers and I honestly dont feel that the small amount of HP gained at the top end after the stock MAF pegs by going with an aftermarket maf will account for the additional hassle and $$$$ potentially involved. As you can see by other posts in this thread the stock MAF does not seem to be a huge sticking point.

trey193, thanks for the details, your timing seems much more agressive than the KB and diablo tune that Dustoff has. Im curious to see where mine is sitting, maybe I have some room for a little more advance.
 
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