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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
So i order a set of livernoise stage 3 heads cnc ported with 1 mm biger valves and 600 lift springs etc.

the flow claimed for these heads is 301 cfm intake and 215 exhaust at 600 lift.

well i just got them to my machine shop Kotzur racing engines who hand ported my first head set.

This is a reputable and serious machine shop they do all the machine work on my motors and on mike murillos motors and his race cars.

The heads flowed only 262 cfm at .600 lift on kotzurs bench and the exhaust was only 178 cfm at .600 lift

both numbers down 10 cfm from the hand ported heads i just removed in order to replace them with these.

The flow bench is not suspect as i had this same bench flow the heads on my race car and they were 9 cfm off from the numbers from Total engine air flow so i would say its prety acurate and it gets calibrated once a month.

However to be safe i took them to a second machine shop kendrick machine in san antonio texas and bang same flow numbers

I then due to the numbers took a much longer look at the heads and the valves are not what they were suposed to be they are 1 mm larger exhaust wich IS correct but are stock size on the intake and were supposed to be 1 mm larger intake.


I have called livernoise and was told that for 1 they flow the heads on a 3.7 inch big bore so you cant expect those numbers on a stock bore.

But 40 cfm is way out of the range of flow bench and bore size discrepency

as can be imagined im very upset at this point having removed and sold a set of heads wich were superior to what I paid 2800 bucks for and not having goten anything near what is advertised.

Has anyone else on the board goten a set of these heads and had the flow verified by a nuetral bench ?

I am awaiting a call back from them tomorrow as they said no one in the machin shop was there today to talk to me.

I will let the board know exactly how things go and are handled.
 

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Now that's interesting....
 

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Truth be told, I find this in poor taste Pat, to get on here and pretty Much bash these guys on what could have been a simple mistake made by a guy in the shipping department.
Instead of Wording this like something that could have been a Mistake, You make it sound like you are telling everyone else who has ordered these heads to watch out, they have been taken by Livernois.

Alot of folks have had good results from Livernois Parts as well as great Customer service from them.
You made a phone call and didn't get the Answer you wanted so you get on here and take it out on them.

Why would you have not waited to get the return call and get things worked out and started a thread Titled Differently along the lines of :
"I had a problem with an Order from Livernois, and They helped me out, Great Guys and Customer service from Livernois"

Or would that me too much to Ask?
 

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I've never used Livernoise however their reptution is so outstanding I find this very hard to believe.

I'm sure they will make it right
 

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Truth be told, I find this in poor taste Pat, to get on here and pretty Much bash these guys on what could have been a simple mistake made by a guy in the shipping department.
Instead of Wording this like something that could have been a Mistake, You make it sound like you are telling everyone else who has ordered these heads to watch out, they have been taken by Livernois.

Alot of folks have had good results from Livernois Parts as well as great Customer service from them.
You made a phone call and didn't get the Answer you wanted so you get on here and take it out on them.

Why would you have not waited to get the return call and get things worked out and started a thread Titled Differently along the lines of :
"I had a problem with an Order from Livernois, and They helped me out, Great Guys and Customer service from Livernois"

Or would that me too much to Ask?
Well said.

I use nobody BUT Livernois...great shop, great people, great products, great race program, great customer service, etc.
 

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understand

I think we all understand your fustrasion, but I am confident LMS will stand behind everything they sell! They will make it right if there is an issue!
+2 Dave
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Truth be told, I find this in poor taste Pat, to get on here and pretty Much bash these guys on what could have been a simple mistake made by a guy in the shipping department.
Instead of Wording this like something that could have been a Mistake, You make it sound like you are telling everyone else who has ordered these heads to watch out, they have been taken by Livernois.

Alot of folks have had good results from Livernois Parts as well as great Customer service from them.
You made a phone call and didn't get the Answer you wanted so you get on here and take it out on them.

Why would you have not waited to get the return call and get things worked out and started a thread Titled Differently along the lines of :
"I had a problem with an Order from Livernois, and They helped me out, Great Guys and Customer service from Livernois"

Or would that me too much to Ask?
I was left on hold for 20 minits today and then hung up on < by accident I am sure > then had to call back and wait 10 more minits just to get that someone will call you tomorrow.

had they acidentaly sent me a stage 2 set it should have stone stock valves in all the holes they dont even offer a package with just exhaust valves and stock intake valves.

So how does a head get machined for the larger exhaust valve seat but not the intake when they dont even sell a head with that setup.

if its a mistake its a big ass screw up by the machinest who apparently installed larger exhaust valves into the bottom flowing cnc set they sell then shipped them to me and billed them to me as stage 3 heads.

I am not making judgements yet either way
I will wait till i see what they say tomorrow

I am not slaming them i clearly said im going to post how they handle it.. and if they take care of it i will post so ..
I posted a truthfull acount of what happened what i paid for and what i recieved.

I did not say hey livernoise screwed me or hey they are lieing about the flow of the heads they sell.. i simply posted the flow for the heads i recieved and what was installed in the heads i receieved

and asked if anyone else had independantly verfified the flow numbers.

I will be sure to be the first person to say if livernoise takes care of me however
This is not the first problem i have had with this purchase it took almost a month to get my heads because and i qoute.

"ford sent us a bunch of core heads that ford messed up on so we can't cnc them because they don't index right in the machine so we have to wait for more cores from ford"
 

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I was left on hold for 20 minits today and then hung up on < by accident I am sure > then had to call back and wait 10 more minits just to get that someone will call you tomorrow.

had they acidentaly sent me a stage 2 set it should have stone stock valves in all the holes they dont even offer a package with just exhaust valves and stock intake valves.

So how does a head get machined for the larger exhaust valve seat but not the intake when they dont even sell a head with that setup.

if its a mistake its a big ass screw up by the machinest who apparently installed larger exhaust valves into the bottom flowing cnc set they sell then shipped them to me and billed them to me as stage 3 heads.

I am not making judgements yet either way
I will wait till i see what they say tomorrow

I am not slaming them i clearly said im going to post how they handle it.. and if they take care of it i will post so ..
I posted a truthfull acount of what happened what i paid for and what i recieved.

I did not say hey livernoise screwed me or hey they are lieing about the flow of the heads they sell.. i simply posted the flow for the heads i recieved and what was installed in the heads i receieved

and asked if anyone else had independantly verfified the flow numbers.

I will be sure to be the first person to say if livernoise takes care of me however
This is not the first problem i have had with this purchase it took almost a month to get my heads because and i qoute.

"ford sent us a bunch of core heads that ford messed up on so we can't cnc them because they don't index right in the machine so we have to wait for more cores from ford"
Dude, you have everyright to be pissed, I know I would be. Also, like you said, thats a pretty big mistake. Its your hard earned 2800.00 nobody elses, please keep us posted.
 

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Fox-Lake are the heads to have. I remember a certain article that Livernois heads made 101 hp with a headswap only that was total BS and they hush-hushed that and never did say what the real numbers were. Seems like brand "L" has alot people drinking kool-aid.
 

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I've dealt with Livernois ALOT through my shop & I'm sure they will take care of it,they always have if there was a problem with my orders (which has been very seldom).Good Luck I hope everything works out & keep us posted for sure.
 

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I was left on hold for 20 minits today and then hung up on < by accident I am sure > then had to call back and wait 10 more minits just to get that someone will call you tomorrow.

had they acidentaly sent me a stage 2 set it should have stone stock valves in all the holes they dont even offer a package with just exhaust valves and stock intake valves.

So how does a head get machined for the larger exhaust valve seat but not the intake when they dont even sell a head with that setup.

if its a mistake its a big ass screw up by the machinest who apparently installed larger exhaust valves into the bottom flowing cnc set they sell then shipped them to me and billed them to me as stage 3 heads.

I am not making judgements yet either way
I will wait till i see what they say tomorrow

I am not slaming them i clearly said im going to post how they handle it.. and if they take care of it i will post so ..
I posted a truthfull acount of what happened what i paid for and what i recieved.

I did not say hey livernoise screwed me or hey they are lieing about the flow of the heads they sell.. i simply posted the flow for the heads i recieved and what was installed in the heads i receieved

and asked if anyone else had independantly verfified the flow numbers.

I will be sure to be the first person to say if livernoise takes care of me however
This is not the first problem i have had with this purchase it took almost a month to get my heads because and i qoute.

"ford sent us a bunch of core heads that ford messed up on so we can't cnc them because they don't index right in the machine so we have to wait for more cores from ford"
what if this is a mistake and it could very well be, there could be someone else getting ready to bolt these same heads on there car and now that you have shared your findings they could now be diligent in making sure they dont have an issue with there heads. it doesnt appear to me you are looking to slam anyone!! and this is the reason we are all hear! to many people want to kiss there tuners or vendors butt hoping to get a break down the line, i for one am glad when an issue comes up that could help someone else, and we all know they have a good rep and will make good but its very possible this may not be the only bad set out there and i for one am glad that you shared your findings with us. once your situation gets resolved make sure you notify us as its only fair to do so, also try and get feedback as to whether this was an isolated incident so others with this set up can be corrected if need be.
 

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Truth be told, I find this in poor taste Pat, to get on here and pretty Much bash these guys on what could have been a simple mistake made by a guy in the shipping department.
Instead of Wording this like something that could have been a Mistake, You make it sound like you are telling everyone else who has ordered these heads to watch out, they have been taken by Livernois.
I don't think this post is anything other than informative. There seems to be a rash of "let's bash the author of the original post if more than a few people like the subject person" going on lately.

He laid out an articulate and thoughtful recount of the situation. It's both frank and honest, so I don't see what the problem is.

As an aside, how many people do you think actually flow a set of heads before they put them on?

I'm going to go with less than 1%.

So, I think suggesting that people get ANY ported/aftermarket heads they buy flowed and checked is a GREAT bit of advice. (Not just Livernois.)

How crappy do you think the OP feels in knowing that he spent a TON of money on heads and labor to get LESS than that with which he started?

I'm kind of pissed FOR him. Since the labor is about 500 bucks to R&R heads, plus the 2800 bucks for not so great heads.

FYI: I bought an oil filter relocation plate from them that needed some time on my bench grinder to fit. They sold it to me under the "I'll call you during the week with all the fittings you need" line. After a few days of a no call back, I called and was told "I'm sorry, we don't make the fitting for that any more."

So, this isn't the first time I've seen something come out of their "shipping department" as less than advertised.

I, for one, think SFTDYNA hit the nail on the head.

Caveat emptor, I guess. :shrug:
 

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Fox-Lake are the heads to have. I remember a certain article that Livernois heads made 101 hp with a headswap only that was total BS and they hush-hushed that and never did say what the real numbers were. Seems like brand "L" has alot people drinking kool-aid.
The article you are thinking of is one from a few years back and was regarding BBR heads and cams.

Why is it people feel the need to jump on the band wagon immediately? I feel certain Livernois will take care of any issues.
 

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I think the first thing in this scenario that we would like to do is get the heads back so we can look into these issues and try to sort out what is going on.

From a flow standpoint there will always be a discrepancy in flow between benches, operators, day to day, etc. That is the nature of the beast. Usually the variance is not as much as you have listed though. That is part of the reason we would like the heads back so we can try and ascertain what is going on. While flow numbers are great and a somewhat useful method of comparing heads when shopping I think that the bottom line as always with anything is that the proof is in the pudding. Advertising great numbers, poor numbers, or any numbers starts to matter very little when the ultimate goal is how much power did it make and how fast did it go. The idea is that airflow is an important factor in the design of the cylinder head but in reality it is just one small aspect of what makes the head work and make power. There are numerous things/tricks that can be done to the valvejob to easily create 20+cfm worth of airflow, the only problem is that those things don’t actually make power and is some cases hurt power.

In regards to the smaller valves on the intake side, this may be a mix-up of the heads that you received. The stage 2 heads do use a stock valve in our current line-up of cylinder heads, while the stage 3 uses the larger +1mm aftermarket valve. We are currently in the process of updating our offerings though within the 3 valve cylinder head product line. As some of you may have seen the new stage 3R head which is underway will offer larger valves and larger seats to go along with them along with a revised port that matches. Now in the middle of this change over we have started testing different valve size combinations on some of these test and development heads. One combination is the smaller intake valve combination with the larger exhaust.

We are making the change over to our product line-up for two reasons. The first was to have a more diverse product offering that better tailored the head options we offered to match the applications that people were running today. This also had to do with us utilizing the most up to date designs and components we could offer. The other reason we were making this change was to make the products more durable in the longterm. At the price level of these heads we understand that this is not an upgrade that most people want to change out in a year or two. Given the rising power levels that exist and the desire to build the products to last longer we started looking for every area where there could be an issue (at this point our current offerings have been holding up very well with no known issues but since we want to stay ahead of the curve we started updating). One of area of concern is the valve seat size in relation to the valve diameter size. The problem that exists with the 3 valve heads have to do with the size of the seat. The seat itself is only large enough to accept the stock size valve. Any larger of a valve on the standard valvejob will put the sealing edge dangerously close to the aluminum or in some cases off the aluminum. As anybody could imagine trying to seal hot exhaust gas with just a small edge of aluminum less than .050 over a long period of time is not ideal. Eventually the aluminum will deteriorate and the seal will go away. The only partial solution to this is to bring the valvejob inboard to try and prevent this from happening. While this does work to a degree it is leaving open the possibility for an issue. So the bottom line is in order for absolute control and to guarantee that there will be zero issues you need to either run a smaller valve or a install a larger seat.

This is why we are experimenting with different versions or offerings for different stages of heads. We want the ultimate in durability and performance. This means completely going through our head offerings and evaluating every component and configuration to come up with the best possible packages for the many different applications that exist.
The reason why I listed all this info is to try and better explain and offer more insight to what our current agenda is.

Our current path of development has us working on multiple combinations of parts in conjunction with different designs. Again the goal is to produce the best possible product offerings. These new offerings will have upgrades in parts in some cases and will hopefully offer better coverage and compatibility with all the different applications that exist today while offering the ultimate in durability and performance.

At this point though I think it is best for us to get those heads back and determine what set of heads they are and then get you the right set of heads ASAP so that you can continue your project.

Let me apologize for the delay in getting back to you. Usually most if not all of the guys on the technical side of the operation are gone around 5 o’clock everyday so that is why there was no one here to explain what was going on.

In regards to the previous issue with cores and the delay. I am not sure specifically who gave out that information from here, I will guess a salesperson by the lingo used in the quote. They are somewhat right but did not completely explain what was going on. We received a batch of core heads that were to be used in the making of our cylinder heads. Upon inspection of the heads it was found that some of the guide holes were not concentric to the seat bores. While we could have attempted to work around this issue and make it work it was determined that the final product would not be of a quality we were acceptable with. So we scrapped all of those castings.
 

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The article you are thinking of is one from a few years back and was regarding BBR heads and cams.

Why is it people feel the need to jump on the band wagon immediately? I feel certain Livernois will take care of any issues.
That article was called 'Top Shelf Shuffle' was on page 132 of the December 2008 issue of MM&FF reguarding Livernois Motorsports CNC-Ported Heads and Cams. Seems like there was alot BS becuase number didnt jive and the power stated wasnt true.-Now please get your FACTS STRAIGHT before you try to call me to the carpet on someone your trying to defend that seems to be coming up guilty more than on one occasion.
 
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