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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
<This post and several of those that originally followed it have been moved from the Manley 300M Pro Series I Beam Connecting Rods (<clickable) to their own thread because they weren't related to the original thread's subject matter and should have been a new thread and not an addition to the existing Manley connecting rod thread.>


The Teksid you have will serve you well, especially at a 1000HP and below threshold. The 1999 Teksid and the Aluminator used a WAP side bolt and main cap design that made the 10mm side bolts very easy to install. If you go the 10mm side bolt route be sure to use a thread forming tap not a thread cutting tap. You will only have a little over a single diameter of thread engagement and you will need an intimate thread engagement similar to that used on aluminum. When I did my caps I was shooting for a 76% to 78% thread engagement.

This is a pic of the first generation Mihovitz 10mm side bolts compared to a 9mm WAP side bolt.

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The more recent versions have only half as much threaded shank on the bolt because that is all that is needed. The picture shows how nicely John had ARP integrate the washer into the bolt head. You can do the same thing with a heavy 1" OD washer for a ⅜" fastener and enlarge the hole to fit a 10mm fastener. If you choose to go this route don't forget to chamfer the side of the washer that goes against the underside of the bolt head. ARP provides a generous radius on the underside of their bolt heads for strength. You will need to chamfer the washer to clear that radius.

A modification to the caps that will make the regular assembly and disassembly, that is done during clearance checking and adjustment, easier is a ¼ x 20 or 28 threaded hole in the center of the cap like below,

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This will allow the use of a slide hammer (homemade of course) to pull the caps out of the WAP style blocks. The Teksid blocks use a threaded steel insert with a hex broached in the center to allow an allen wrench to be used to apply a side load to the cap once it is installed in the block. The hex is broached all the way through so the 8mm side bolt can pass through and into the main cap. The ARP torque spec for 8mm bolts is 28 ft/lbs. The torque spec for the 10mm fastener is 62 ft/lbs (same as a main stud). The clamping force goes from about 6600 lbs to about 14,000 lbs - big difference.

Here is a quick rundown of how I did the side bolt upgrade.

The first step is zeroing the head on the mill and then setting the caps up so the bolt holes are parallel and normal to the cap faces. I use gauge pins in the spindle of the mill to find accurate hole centers. Then I drill an undersized hole ~0.015" smaller than what the tap drill chart calls out for the 10mm thread forming tap you will be using. BTW it is easier if the mill has a DRO but not impossible if it does not.

Wood Gas Engineering Machine Metal


I write down the X-Y co-ordinates for each hole so I can come back afterwards with the reamer and tap. If the mill does not have a DRO then you need to drill, ream and thread each hole before moving on to the next.

This is the reaming operation. The reamer (like the drill before hand) is chosen for a 10mm thread forming tap hole size. Reaming the hole to size gives more control over finished hole dimensions and % thread engagement.

Wood Automotive tire Wood stain Hardwood Gas


After reaming the holes I come back with the thread forming tap and use the spindle on the mill to make certain the tap is perfectly vertical and the threads will be square with the face of the cap.

Drill presses Milling Jig grinder Wood Machine tool


After the cap is tapped, I use a chamfering tool to remove the raised burr on the cap and lightly block sand the face to remove any metal protrusions the debuting tool may have left.

This is the difference between the OEM 9mm fasteners and the ARP 10mm fasteners. Infact that is one of the ARP 10mm fasteners that you use a thick 1" OD washer with.

Household hardware Wood Automotive tire Fastener Gas


With set up and all it takes a couple of hours to do a set but it is well worth the effort. Don't forget to zero the head on your mill before you start this modification. The first time you torque these side bolts down and they come up to their 62 ft/lb spec with a crisp click on the torque wrench you will be glad you took the time.

Ed
 

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Ed, That was a fantastic post about the custom ARP M10 main side cap bolts. I don't have a mill or a drill press so I would probably need a machine shop to handle this modification for me.:angry:
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Thanks for the props, Jan.

The M10 fasteners are to die for. I remember ten or so years ago when I was trying to get ARP to make the M9 fasteners (they finally elected to do them) I was so fixated on duplicating the OEM fastener I didn't think much about going oversize.

The thread forming tap addresses two of the challenges with the larger M10 fastener. The first is the major diameter / minor diameter overlap the two thread sizes have. The second was the thread quality. With the thread forming tap you can essentially ream to almost the major diameter of the M9 fastener. When you use the thread forming tap it doesn't cut the thread it extrudes the main cap metal into the thread cavity on the tap. There are no chips and by carefully choosing your tap and reamer you can easily attain a 76% or better thread engagement.

The thread quality with the forming tap is nothing short of stunning. The process requires one of the commercial extreme pressure thread forming lubes to be used in the tapping process but when you are done the thread has a polished surface like a mirror and the bolt has the best feel I have ever felt when you assemble a fastener to a part. In the FWIW bucket I found that the ARP UltraLube when added to the extreme pressure lube made the tapping job a little easier and the finished thread looked and felt a lot better.

It is possible to do the job in a drill press you just have to exercise a bit more care at each step of the way. In particular be careful retaining the work when you are drilling, the reaming phase is pretty easy. A machinist's vise on the drill press table would help a lot during drilling.


Ed
 

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If you go the 10mm side bolt route be sure to use a thread forming tap not a thread cutting tap.Ed
Very nice post Ed, it helps a lot. I do a lot of thread forming in soft metals. I totally agree forming produces a superior thread.

A modification to the caps that will make the regular assembly and disassembly that is done during clearance checking and adjustment easier is a ¼ x 20 or 28 threaded hole in the center of the cap. . .Ed
I don't know the interference fit between the block and the cap but it is substantial. I cringed when I removed the caps. I don't think it can be done many times without hurting the machined fit. I was thinking of warming the block about 100 degrees when I do the install. Using the CTE for aluminum of about 11ppm the crankcase should widen about 0.008". Your thoughts . . . ?
I'm making a small powder coat oven to be used for many things, including lunch! LOL.
Good point, main caps need a provision for a slide hammer.

The Teksid blocks use a threaded steel insert with a hex broached in the center to allow an allen wrench to be used to apply a side load to the cap once it is installed in the block. The hex is broached all the way through so the 8mm side bolt can pass through and into the main cap.Ed
If I go with the 10mm side bolts what happens to the steel inserts? Drilled out? Is there enough meat left for a hex to grip it? What is the recommended side pre-load? Sorry...I need to find a shop manual on eBay. I have Sean Hylan's book around here somewhere but I don't remember it being specific enough like a shop manual. Any recommendations . . . ?

With set up and all it takes a couple of hours to do a set but it is well worth the effort.Ed
Excellent description of the procedure. Many thanks
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 · (Edited)
Very nice post Ed, it helps a lot. I do a lot of thread forming in soft metals. I totally agree forming produces a superior thread.
The formed thread is genuinely impressive. Before I used the tap on the first set of main caps I did a test thread in a small block of 1040. As I backed the tap out I was impressed with the feel and appearance of the thread. I put a drop of oil on the thread and on the bolt and screwed them together to do a quick and dirty seat of the pants evaluation. I had never experienced the smooth install of a fastener in a new thread that was anything like that.

As impressed as I was about the assembly as I began to back the bolt out I was in for another surprise. I held the small block of steel between my thumb and second index finger and without thinking placed my first index finger against the back side of the tapped hole. As I backed the bolt out it actually sucked my index finger into the back side of the tapped hole. I was impressed!

I don't know the interference fit between the block and the cap but it is substantial. I cringed when I removed the caps. I don't think it can be done many times without hurting the machined fit. I was thinking of warming the block about 100 degrees when I do the install. Using the CTE for aluminum of about 11ppm the crankcase should widen about 0.008". Your thoughts . . . ?
You math on the CTE is spot on. The interesting thing is that Ford finished the contact surfaces on the caps and where they touch the block with a fairly smooth (low Ra) finish. The hard cap, and smooth surfaces on both the cap and the block allow repeated assembly and disassembly with no apparent erosion of the block surfaces as long as a light coating of oil is present. The block is 356 aluminum if I recall correctly and is heat treated to either a T5 or T6 state. You can tell if you tap the block with a small hammer. It doesn't ring like a steel crank but it is far from the usual thud you get when you tap non heat treated aluminum.

I'm making a small powder coat oven to be used for many things, including lunch! LOL.
Good point, main caps need a provision for a slide hammer.
I have, with increasing frequency lately, thought of making a small oven just for powder coating. I haven't got my butt in gear yet though. The slide hammer is an absolute blessing when you are going through all the pre-assembly fitting and clearance checking. I was a bit squeamish about going too deep in the cap with the anchor hole so I limited it to 1.5 diameters.

If I go with the 10mm side bolts what happens to the steel inserts? Drilled out? Is there enough meat left for a hex to grip it? What is the recommended side pre-load? Sorry...I need to find a shop manual on eBay. I have Sean Hylan's book around here somewhere but I don't remember it being specific enough like a shop manual. Any recommendations . . . ?
I don't recall the torque spec on the inserts for the proper side preload off the top of my head. I'll see if I can find it somewhere. I don't believe Hyland published it in either of the two versions of his book.

I have not done the M10 side bolts for a Teksid although I believe it is possible because John used them on his race engines and they were typically Teksids. Because the cast cap is a little skimpy for casting material at the side bolt entry point, I suspect John may have replaced the cast iron caps with a billet steel cap making more material available for the M10 fastener.

With respect to the adjuster used to preload the main caps, I would almost bet the M10 bolt will not fit through. That said, it may be possible to drill the adjuster just enough to allow the M10 fastener through and still have the corners of the factory broached hex to tighten the adjuster. If not then the adjuster would need to be broached one allen size larger.

Excellent description of the procedure. Many thanks
Thanks for the kind words. These engines are expensive enough to build as is. Whenever it is possible to share knowledge we have already gleaned we try to and I attempt to encourage it. At the top of this forum you will see a sticky named Terminator Table of Contents or TToC for short. It is an index with clickable links to many of the tech threads that can be helpful for engine builders as they go about the process of building these engines.

Ed
 

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The slide hammer is an absolute blessing when you are going through all the pre-assembly fitting and clearance checking. I was a bit squeamish about going too deep in the cap with the anchor hole so I limited it to 1.5 diameters.ed
I'm making my own caps so I can add material where I need it. But typically, all the load is taken up by the 1st 3 threads regardless of how many threads there are so your 1.5D is plenty.

I have not done the M10 side bolts for a Teksid although I believe it is possible because John used them on his race engines and they were typically Teksids. Because the cast cap is a little skimpy for casting material at the side bolt entry point, I suspect John may have replaced the cast iron caps with a billet steel cap making more material available for the M10 fastener.

With respect to the adjuster used to preload the main caps, I would almost bet the M10 bolt will not fit through. That said, it may be possible to drill the adjuster just enough to allow the M10 fastener through and still have the corners of the factory broached hex to tighten the adjuster. If not then the adjuster would need to be broached one allen size larger.ed[
Thanks for bringing that up. All to be considered when making the caps. I hope the 10mm bolts are still available. Things are getting scarce for the Teksid.
At the top of this forum you will see a sticky named Terminator Table of Contents or TToC for short. It is an index with clickable links to many of the tech threads that can be helpful for engine builders as they go about the process of building these engines. Ed
I will start sleuthing through the TToC in the coming days. Great tip...thanks.

Are there any tricks here regarding multiple quotes. I usually copy the identifier and then just paste it when needed for a repeat quote. However, even though I just copy the quote ID, when I paste I get a long sentence like this
"Read more at: https://www.modularfords.com/thread...m-Connecting-Rods/page3?p=2262483#post2262483" and in previewing this post I see that only half this sentence is displayed. Also, notice your name is missing but the number ID is correct.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Try here => https://www.summitracing.com/parts/ARP-672-1006. When you use these bolts they will protrude one to two threads into the outer M8 main stud holes. If you want to run the M8 studs then you will need to give the bolts a one to two thread haircut until they no longer protrude into the stud well.

A lot of people will feel uncomfortable about not using the M8 studs. Don't forget the iron blocks the Cobra's came with did not use them either! If it makes you sleep better give the bolts a hair cut. If you are OK w/o the M8 studs save yourself all the work. The washers you need are from McMaster Carr. This is the washer click here => 1" OD HD Washer.

When washers are made they are frequently punched out of plate then heat treated and/or black oxided. These washers are no different. As a result one side is flat with square corners the other side where the die began to cut the washer from the parent steel plate is not. It will have a rounded face at the edge of the washer. This is the side of the washer that needs to face the underside of the bolt head. It also needs to be chamfered to clear the underhead radius.

This is the radius I am speaking about;

Ed
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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
...

Are there any tricks here regarding multiple quotes. I usually copy the identifier and then just paste it when needed for a repeat quote. However, even though I just copy the quote ID, when I paste I get a long sentence like this

"Read more at: https://www.modularfords.com/thread...m-Connecting-Rods/page3?p=2262483#post2262483" and in previewing this post I see that only half this sentence is displayed. Also, notice your name is missing but the number ID is correct.
That sounds like the same technique I use. For example to begin a portion of quoted text, I would use the original poster's ID QUOTE=saltfever;2262485 (w/ the square brackets) to preface the quoted text and then close the quoted text with /QUOTE (again w/ the square brackets)

Ed
 

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Try here => https://www.summitracing.com/parts/ARP-672-1006. When you use these bolts they will protrude one to two threads into the outer M8 main stud holes. If you want to run the M8 studs then you will need to give the bolts a one to two thread haircut until they no longer protrude into the stud well.Ed
I'm still interested in the 10mm bolts. Here is a pic of the Ford threaded inserts I just measured. If the 10mm bolts are truly 0.393 or smaller diameter then they should fit through the inserts without modifying them. Thanks for link to the Summit bolts. They should be better than stock if I can't find something larger.

eschaider=259479 said:
The washers you need are from McMaster Carr. This is the washer click here => 1" OD HD Washer.Ed
Those are nice washers. Kind of handy to have in the shop even if not used for the motor. Like on the highly stressed bolts holding the motor to the engine stand and many other things. I think I get a few of them.
 

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This side-bolt thingie is kind of scary. The insert pre-load has to be spot on so as not to overstress the side of the crankcase. Using your numbers you are increasing the clamp load more than 100% on both side of the crankcase! If one is not extremely careful in setting preload the case wall could be easily over stressed on what is already a fatigued part. On top of that the mains are trying to pull the bottom out of it. I think that picture you showed me has affected me for life!
:scare:
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I'm still interested in the 10mm bolts. Here is a pic of the Ford threaded inserts I just measured. If the 10mm bolts are truly 0.393 or smaller diameter then they should fit through the inserts without modifying them. Thanks for link to the Summit bolts. They should be better than stock if I can't find something larger.

Those are nice washers. Kind of handy to have in the shop even if not used for the motor. Like on the highly stressed bolts holding the motor to the engine stand and many other things. I think I get a few of them.
The M10 bolts are supposed to be 0.3937", I suspect in the real world that works out to 0.394". I am getting a block back from the shop tomorrow afternoon that I installed those M10 side bolts on. I'll measure them and update this thread.

The hex in your pic is for an 11mm (0.4331") Allen. That means the M10 bolt should just fit right through the 0.396 center of the jackscrew. A clearance of 0.002" might be a whisker tight so a little massage on the jack screw ID to say 0.400" would give you a bit more wiggle room.

This side-bolt thingie is kind of scary. The insert pre-load has to be spot on so as not to overstress the side of the crankcase. Using your numbers you are increasing the clamp load more than 100% on both side of the crankcase! If one is not extremely careful in setting preload the case wall could be easily over stressed on what is already a fatigued part. On top of that the mains are trying to pull the bottom out of it. I think that picture you showed me has affected me for life!
:scare:
The WAP block design loads the main caps differently than the Teksid design. The Teksid design depends on the jack screws to squeeze the main caps by gently pushing out on the sidewalls of the crankcase. The WAP block design uses an interference fit cap that squeezes the sidewalls of the crankcase against the main cap when you tighten the side bolts. Probably very similar loadings - just done differently.

The torque specs for the jackscrews require a two step torquing. Step #1 takes them to 44 inch lbs and step 2 takes them to 80 to 97 inch lbs.
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The torque specs obviously just lightly snug the jackscrew to the cap. The jackscrews will spread the crankcase hence the low inch pound tightening spec. The M10 side bolt will sandwich everything together just like on the WAP block, it will not spread the crankcase.

Ed
 

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Great stuff as usual, Ed. Glad you didn't come up with this a few years ago, would have involved dropping even more $$$ in my Aluminator;)
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Great stuff as usual, Ed. Glad you didn't come up with this a few years ago, would have involved dropping even more $$$ in my Aluminator;)
Yes but I fully expect you to implement this in full on the next freshening :)

Actually the work is pretty easy to do at home if you buy a bench top drill press and machinist vise - which at Harbor Freight pricing is much less than what a machine shop would charge you to do the job.

I haven't seen you pop up recently until now. If you haven't already check out the PnP MS3Pro for the Terminators. This is really impressive stuff and if you keep your OEM ECU, you just unplug one and plug in the other at smog certification time and you are home free. When you leave the smog shop go home and swap back to the MS3Pro by unplugging the OEM ECU and Pluggin in the MS3Pro.

The MS3Pro has a lot of nice to have stuff in particular engine saving features that can reduce performance to a limp home mode or shut off the engine entirely. Very nice stuff, very good price point.

Ed
 

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Oh boy, I feel seriously rusty with wrenches since the engine has been in for long and is running so well - just haven't needed to tinker at all:) Otherwise, just busy with the work stuff (hopefully will get back to your neck of the woods one of these days!).

Will check out the MS3Pro for sure since I actually am hoping to get on a dyno after the Whipple and have the tune checked out. Unfortunately, Jeff Chambers here in Ohio decided to retire and close up shop, which probably caught a lot of us off guard. Had I known, would have jumped in there for sure. In the meantime, hopefully it will get nice here soon and I can put on some more miles!
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 · (Edited)
I'm glad I did this. For my Teksid, I upgraded to the 05 9mm ARP side bolts from the 8mm oem.
The 9mm WAP block generation fasteners are a definite step up from the original factory 8mm hardware, Russ.

These 10mm side bolts are as much better than the 9mm fasteners as the 9's were compared to the 8's. Definitely worth the effort if you have the engine apart.

Ed
 

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Engine is already together. I got the 9mm because I was going to do the larger main studs and felt going to a 10mm with the larger studs would be close in clearances. I decided to stick with the regular size ARP main studs and just kept the 9mm. Not as good as the 10mm but better than the 8mm.

The 9mm WAP block generation fasteners are a definite step up from the original factory 8mm hardware, Russ.

These 10mm side bolts are as much better than the 9mm fasteners as the 9's were compared to the 8's. Definitely worth the effort if you have the engine apart.

Ed
 

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Cobra Engineering just released a new Teksid Steel Main cap set that comes with ARP M10 side bolts.


Form Cobra Engineering:

"Teksid block main cap!

These are billet steel and have M10 x 1.25 side bolt threads.
These upgraded bolts do fit in the jack screws
with no modificaton needed.

ARP side bolts and washers included.
$625 "

http://www.cobraengineering.net/main.html
 
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