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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Just wanted to run some ideas by you guys on this. I am doing some modding to my 97 GT and this is what I am adding (some parts already bought, others waiting for a couple of days):

-2001 PI cams
-70MM Throttle Body
-80MM C&L MAF w/True-Flow inlet tube
-Off Road H Pipe
-Underdrive pullies
-Granatelli solid upper and lower control arms
-Battery relocation kit
-Steeda weld-in SFC's w/crossbraces
-FRPP aluminum driveshaft
Also probably going to have a PNP done to the heads...I say probably because I dont know for sure...guy said he would do it for free...yes, he is a competent mechanic who has done it before and he is a good friend.

This is what I already have on (I am only adding this so you have the whole picture):
-Flowmaster Catback
-Superchip
-Nitto 555R's
-King Cobra Clutch kit w/FRPP adjustable cable and quadrant
-B&M Ripper shifter
-FRPP 4.10's

I have had the chip for a while..I bought it in a moment of weakness. Im thinking of ditching it for a timing adjuster.

Now I have read where a 70MM TB on a stock NA 4.6 could cause a loss in power. However I have also read (on a couple of other forums) from guys who have done the cam swap, and they say that as long as you have the H-pipe and MAF the TB doesnt hurt anything, and actually helps some (I already have the TB). Since I have never done this myself, I have to yield to a conglomeration of the opinions. I dont want HP gain guesses...I just want to know how you think the TB will effect my overall performance in regards to loss or gain in general. There are so many different opinions it is crazy. The head swap is not an option at this point...keep that in mind. Thanks for any input.

P.S. Anyone know how much Superchips advances the timing? I have not had it custom burned...its a bone stock program. And what are your thoughts on the Granatelli control arms as opposed to the D&D?
 

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My first suggestion to you would be to ditch the superchip. One wrong pothole and you could be gliding helplessly when the car shuts off. I can say that because the first chip I had for my stang was a superchip. It was burned for my stang, but the car wouldnt start. I took the computer out of the housing and plugged the chip in, and the car ran fine, but not with the housing installed. There have been several documented cases of late model stangs using the superchip, and having such a thing happen to them while driving. You should really go with a "piggyback" style chip. Something like a diablo or autologic. Until you start doing other heavier mods, a standard burn will do. Then, its recommended to have your chip dyno tuned to get the most out of it.

Putting PI cams into your stock heads isnt going to net you CRAP. Heads and cams need to work together, and the best thing you can do is go with PI heads. Even before you do any of those other mods to the car, GET THE PI HEADS. That will be your best spent $. Save your money from those other mods, wait a few months and save some more. Anywone here will tell you thats where your $ will be best spent.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Arrgghhhh....I already bought the cams and some of the other items. I knew I would only get like 15 HP out of the cams but for 150 bucks that aint bad. Plus I might be getting a deal on a powerdyne supercharger and the idea of 11 to 1 compression bothers me. Yeah, the chip is gone Im afraid. Im going to hold on the other chips till I get more done. So what about the effect of the TB?
 

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What I would recommend in your situation would be this. Since you already got the cams, talk to Tim Barth aka Cobrakiller. He can get you a set of SHM PI heads, no cams. Put the cams you bought into those heads, buy the kit you will need to install it to your motor. Tim is a HUGE help and is more than happy to answer any and all of your questions, and can even help you with installing them yourself. I think the total cost for parts, not including the cams would be less than $1k. If you do that before any other mod, then atleast any mod you do will actually be worth doing.

If you think you were going to get 15 out of the cams, I think you got your hopes up. The heads have to be able to breathe for cams to be effective. Non PI heads dont breath enough for those cams.

Now, do those cams on PI heads and your talking 40 rwhp or more. You will notice a HUGE difference. I did all the mods in my signature (almost all of them) before I did the heads and cams. Some helped and some probably hurt. As you can see it didnt really net me too much over stock. Once the heads are done the other mods will kick in and lend a helping hand. The only thing you should do that will not hurt you is Underdrive pulleys, Catback, headers, K&N filter, rear end gears. Not much other than that I would recommend. I say this from experience.
 

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stanggt00 said:
Putting PI cams into your stock heads isnt going to net you CRAP. Heads and cams need to work together, and the best thing you can do is go with PI heads. Even before you do any of those other mods to the car, GET THE PI HEADS. That will be your best spent $. Save your money from those other mods, wait a few months and save some more. Anywone here will tell you thats where your $ will be best spent.
Really....
I guess the dyno lies then...
I was the fist to do it-even though most everybody told me it would not do anything.Red is before..blue is after-NOTHING Else changed but the cams.
JL

 

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Thats just a set of PI cams on a set of stock non PI heads? As all the professionals say, if the head cant flow, the cam isnt going to make a whole lot of difference. For the time and money, 12 - 13hp isnt worth it. with a set of PI heads it would pick up ALOT more. Dont do a job half a$$, do it right the first time.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
150 bucks and I do it myself...I get 13 HP and 18 Torque...thats not too bad.
 

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$150 for the cams he was using? Got to be more than that, no? comp cams and shm cams are $500 or more. Also remember, not everyone has the tools or know how to do the work themselves.
 

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stanggt00 said:
$150 for the cams he was using? Got to be more than that, no? comp cams and shm cams are $500 or more. Also remember, not everyone has the tools or know how to do the work themselves.
The tools are simple hand tools that anybody can go buy,and most that own a car already have.
It takes approx 7 hours time,and a set of used PI cams are from $100-$200.
You don't even have to buy any gaskets-all of the 4.6L gaskets with the exception of the head gaskets are reuseable.
Also..that's 13 rear wheel hp on an auto trans car with an inefficient IRS.
JL
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 · (Edited)
Anybody know of any tech articles on the PI cam swap...kinda walkthrough just so I have an idea of what Im getting into? Do the heads have to come off or can this be done with them still on. I would assume from the time frame the heads stay on. I also got information from Hatfield Racing Engines on porting my heads. For about 600 dollars I can get a PNP/MAV job that they are willing to guarantee will flow more than PI heads and give me at least 35-40 HP and keep my compression blower friendly. Add in my cams and I will be looking at 50HP according to them. This is their "real world" testing according to them, and they have the flow data and dyno results to prove it. Dusty, who does all the cylinder head work, has worked extensively with the modular heads and has done quite a bit of flow testing on both types of heads. Although they specialize in full race applications he told me has a sweet spot in his heart for street cars, especially Mustangs, and loves to build more HP for sleepers. He says he will let me take pics of his work and post his flow test results. I think Im gonna do it in a month or so.

600 for head work, 150 for my cams *already bought*=40-50HP.
1300+ for 50HP and 11:1 compression ratio...hmmmm...you guess.

Also probably going to have a PNP done to the heads...I say probably because I dont know for sure...guy said he would do it for free...yes, he is a competent mechanic who has done it before and he is a good friend.
No, this is not Dusty. This was a friend of mine who backed out because he thought it was going to be more than he could handle. Which is good because it forced me to start calling around.
 

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Sounds like a pretty good deal. Talk to CobraKiller. He said he has a cam swap walkthrough on the internet somewhere.

Adding 40-50 hp to your, I'm assuming stock setup, will put you right about 225-230 rwhp?
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
To the rear wheels yes. I also went ahead with the MAC 70Mmm TB, C&L 80MM MAF w/true-flo inlet pipe, MAC O/R H & Steeda MIL's, TMD Aluminum underdrive pulleys, Granatelli upper and lower control arms, Steeda weld-in SFC's with cross braces, and battery relocation kit. Dusty is also goint to port match my TB to my TB adapter.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 · (Edited)
No, not now...after the port work and cam install. I have no accurate guess as to what I am making right now. I will take my car to the dyno before I pull the heads. I dont think that the mods I have gotten will add much in the way of HP at this point. Maybe 20 total. I think the benefit will become more apparenent after the port work and cams. We'll see, dyno shouldnt lie. I just hope it is what I am shooting for. Think Im also going to get an aluminum flywheel. My Nittos, control arms, and 4.10's are the best performance mods I have gotten. I just need to build up on the HP and torque now.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Buzz Lightyear said:
that C&L mass air meter is junk too.
Is that your professional opinion or just what you read somewhere on the net? How about contributing some information to back up your claim. That might help a lot. Its junk compared to what? What is it that makes it junk? If it is junk why to so many successful racers use them? For what I paid for it I could easily sell it at a profit...but Im not in price range for a Univer...so enlighten me please.
 

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Ok good luck on the C&L mass air meter and your ported 92-98 Heads. You know it all thats why you were originally going to use 92-98 Heads instead of getting the PI Units.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Buzz Lightyear said:
Ok good luck on the C&L mass air meter and your ported 92-98 Heads. You know it all thats why you were originally going to use 92-98 Heads instead of getting the PI Units.
Jesus...would you just make an attempt at an informed answer instead of acting like a ****ing baby? If you dont know just dont post a reply. Grow the **** up. You obvisouly only know how to regurgitate everything you've read on Corral or Stangnet. But you cant explain your posistion. Fine. I dont want 11.5 to 1 compression. Im not going to run 10 or 11 psi through a blower. Headporting is just as effective and costs half as much and keeps my compression blower friendly. I CAN post factual data on headflow studies if it is needed, and it appears others can post their dyno results, which is good info...but you dont seem to think these things are necassary. I should have expected as much from you considering the way you conducted yourself in the other thread.
 

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twokingsracer said:
You obvisouly only know how to regurgitate everything you've read on Corral or Stangnet.
Ive run 12.7NA and 11.5 125Shot in a 3600 # car. I dont only read, I do it, judging by what Ive seen you type all youve done so far is dream of doing it. The reason C&L sucks is because you tune the mass air meter with a sample tube. Pro M tunes electronically thru the meter itself, not but changing way air flows thru tube. You want proof that C&L is the less superior product ? You show me 1 fast car with a C&L and I will show you a faster with either a Pro M or Stock Lighting Mass air. What more proof do you want ?

twokingsracer said:


But you cant explain your posistion. Fine. I dont want 11.5 to 1 compression. Im not going to run 10 or 11 psi through a blower. Headporting is just as effective and costs half as much and keeps my compression blower friendly.

This line of mumbo jumbo isnt exactly clear but lemme say, PI heads on a Stock 97 Block wont give you 11.5:1 compression, it yeilds a compression ratio of 10.2:1. If you like I will forward you a excel spread sheet to figure out compression. Im sure you will need me to also send you Head Gasket thickness, CC of head as well as volume below the deck. 10:1 Compression is blower freindly and will help a street car with lowend tq and hp. Also why are you worried about compression ? You say your not running 10-11 PSI, even if it was 11.5:1 your gonna be better under your application. Wait maybe you thought it was 11.5:1 because you werent going to use a head gasket ?

twokingsracer said:


I CAN post factual data on headflow studies if it is needed, and it appears others can post their dyno results, which is good info...but you dont seem to think these things are necassary. I should have expected as much from you considering the way you conducted yourself in the other thread.
Like I said show me a fast car and I will email you ten names of people running faster or making more power with either PI heads or SVO Heads. You might be right about the Ported PI heads being priced better but I didnt know this was about money, I though it was about best results. I know what my time is worth and there is no way I would pull off 92-98 heads, port and polish them, give em a valve job and install back onto the car. For what my time is worth, the $1000 swap is better than the 10 hours you have to put into those boat anchor heads.
 

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There are 2 different Romeo head castings from '92-'98.
The earlier F4AE '92-'95 heads aren't worth messing with as you cannot remove enough material to make them flow(see pic below).
The '96-'98 F5AE heads have alot of untapped potential.
F4AE on the left,F5AE on the right.

JL
 
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