Mustang and Ford Performance Forums banner

1 - 20 of 21 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
55 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
I am running the wideband setup right now for the PNP MS3 ECU. I picked up a DLG-1 dual wideband kit with the 4.9 Bosch sensors. I feel like it is common sense but getting some conflicting information. Do you tap into both 02 sensor wires or does this ECU want only 1? It seems like one of those things were you might as well have 2 wideband signals but only tune off of 1. Close to finishing this thing once and for all and I want to take full advantage of this computer.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
9,335 Posts
If you come on over the CAN bus it will read two sensors. If you do not, then I am not sure. Best bet would be to call DIYAutotune. They have live help for MS3Pro P-n-P customers.

Ed
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
55 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
They told me to simply tap into both of the OEM 02 sensor wires. Simple enough and the ECU will recognize both signals.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
9,335 Posts
That's it then, Kyle. You should be good to go.

Next time you go wideband shopping you ought to look into these guys 14 Point 7 <=clickable. Hands down, they have the fastest Wideband electronics available today. Their best (CAN bus required) Wideband is their Spartan 3 <= clickable model which is twice as fast as their Spartan 2 which already blows everyone else in the weeds. As good as the technology is their pricing ie equally friendly.

Ed
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,412 Posts
Subscribing so I can find this later since widebands s are next on my list to purchase for the MS3Pro going in in the Cobra with the new motor!

Ken
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
55 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
I had the DLG-1 for another project and I will probably swap them out with a different model after a while. How would one go about using the CAN bus system required for the spartan 3 you mentioned? These sensors are one of the things I don't want to skimp on when I get the new motor ready.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
9,335 Posts
Check your MS3 doc and you will find a pic like this;

Back Plug.png

That white multiport connector on the back of the ECU handles all the expansion for the ECU. That is where you will find the CAN bus pins.

This is what the connector looks lie as you view it from behind. The CAN bus High and low pins are pin "I" and "K" pins.

Pinouts.png

Follow the manufacturer's instructions for how to attach their can bus peripherals and set up proper addressing. The MS3Pro doc covers chapter and verse on the CAN bus.

Ed
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
55 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
I have not had a chance to get the car on the rollers yet. Its going to the shop this week hopefully for the fuel system and final wiring. We are going to be installing both the wideband and the flex sensor at the same time. I'll let you know what the results are. Hopefully this 90k mile long block holds up under low boost.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,784 Posts
That's it then, Kyle. You should be good to go.

Next time you go wideband shopping you ought to look into these guys 14 Point 7 <=clickable. Hands down, they have the fastest Wideband electronics available today. Their best (CAN bus required) Wideband is their Spartan 3 <= clickable model which is twice as fast as their Spartan 2 which already blows everyone else in the weeds. As good as the technology is their pricing ie equally friendly.

Ed
I am running the Adv 3 and love them. Very nice Can Bus setup.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
9,335 Posts
To my knowledge Josh, was the very first to run the Spartan 3 Wideband controller from 12 Point 7. then and I believe now the Spartan 3 controllers come with Bosch's most recent 4.9 sensor. The Spartan 3 controller and Bosch 4.9 sensor are by far the fastest responding wide band sensors available today by a ciountry mile.

The reason fast response is important is fuel system management. If you position the sensor at the Bosch recommended 12 to 18 inched from the valve seat you will have the least time between the sensor readings and the ECU use of those readings in fueling calculations which will make it easier to consistently fuel the engine the way you wanted to.

When you are on a dyne and sit for several seconds at the different rpms to establish the engine's fuel demands at that engine speed is is relatively easy to do because the engine is operating at a steady state rpm — not accelerating or decelerating. When you are off the rollers and you stomp on it in one of the lower gears (assuming you hook up) the engine will run through the rpm range so quick it will surprise youth first time.

It will surprise the ECU and the engine also if you have slow responding wide band electornics. The slow responding Wideband electronics will always be a day late and a dollar short in terms of telling the ECU about the engine's AFR. Tha lost time will cost you power and performance and if it is great enough it can damage pistons depending on how close to the line you choose to walk.

Like I said at the beginning of this post, Josh was the very first to run the Spartan 3 controllers and if it weren't for his Sherlock Holmes work digging them up, few if any of us would likely have found them, at least not quickly — Thanks Josh.


Ed
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,412 Posts
Going to sound like an idiot for this BUT....

Josh/Ed
If using the Spartan 3 linked above, do I buy 2 of them to utilize 2 O2 sensors for each bank and assign them each an ID through CAN, or is there another component that both 02 sensors plug into and assign only 1 ID?

I haven't had any widebands or experience with them before and trying to get this figured out so I can get everything I need for each banks wideband/O2 to serve the MS3 Pro Then I'm guessing you run either a gauge for each banks or a single gauge that reads/displays both banks?

Sorry for the rookie/uneducated questions!
Thank you,
Ken
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,412 Posts
Couldn't find the edit tab, buy my wording in the first question is off a bit. I am not wanting 2 O2 sensors for each bank but 2 total, one for each bank. Thanks
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
9,335 Posts
Going to sound like an idiot for this BUT....

Josh/Ed
If using the Spartan 3 linked above, do I buy 2 of them to utilize 2 O2 sensors for each bank and assign them each an ID through CAN, or is there another component that both 02 sensors plug into and assign only 1 ID?

I haven't had any widebands or experience with them before and trying to get this figured out so I can get everything I need for each banks wideband/O2 to serve the MS3 Pro Then I'm guessing you run either a gauge for each banks or a single gauge that reads/displays both banks?

Sorry for the rookie/uneducated questions!
Thank you,
Ken
Not a rookie question, Ken. The answer is simple if not straight forward. You want two widebands, one for each bank. Although the MS3Pro will utilize the OEM narrowband sensor through the OEM wiring harness you will be better served with a pair of widebands allowing the ECU to manage each bank individually.

The Spartan 3 units that Josh found at 14 Point 7 are not just the cats behind they are 100% complete including electronics, Bosch 4.9 Wideband sensors, necessary wiring, even O[SUB]2[/SUB] bungs if you need them. The electrical interface for the Spartan 3 versions is a CAN bus interface available through the expansion plug on the back of the MS3Pro box. Download the instructions for installation of the 14 Point 7 get the Windows programming application to set the CAN ID's for the two sensors, plug them in and you are good to go.

If you use a Mac let me know and I'll send you the Mac version of the serial software tool to set the CAN bus parameters. The wiring harness has more wire than you will require for the install. Locate all your electronics where you p[refer them to be and cut the cable to length to fit up to the back of the MS3Pro ECU box and your install is basically done! It is really that simple.

The Spartan 3 is stunningly fast. If you use the OEM sensor placement on the driverside cast iron header and silver solder a bung into the passenger side in approximately the same position you will be good to go. If you have headers, your choices change a bit. To get within 12 to 18 inches of the exhaust valve seat you will need to weld a bung into a single exhaust tube and read only a single cylinder. If you want to read multiple cylinders then you need to put the O[SUB]2[/SUB] bung down at the collector and you will incur the time delay from exhaust valve seat to collector which may or may not require additional effort in the tuning process.

The instal on these sensors is blissfully simple and the as delivered kits are very complete. Almost forgot, 14 Point 7 has an MS3Pro specific configuration utility for the sensors when used with either a PnP or non PnP ECU. This is an easy decision to make and equally easy install.

Ed

p.s. Just looked at the 14 Point 7 website. They are currently sold out on the Spartan 3 units. Website is expecting new inventory in April.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,412 Posts
Thank you Ed, that clears things up a lot! I also seen they were sold out until April which won't affect me right now as I'm a bit away from needing them. However they were up on my list to buy. Now I need to look at options for the A/F gauge(s).
Thanks again!
Ken
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,784 Posts
Ed-

The 14point7 Spartan 3 actually runs the LSU ADV and NOT the LSU 4.9 that the Spartan 2 runs and most others. @01YellerCobra and I are going to start a thread in here about our quests with MS3 Pro and different things we did and settings as we have been running it since the beginning. Issue I have is I am trying to finish up this semester so I am behind on fun tasks:

These are the Wideband settings I am using to run two 14point7 Spartan 3.

Project properties.JPG

GEneral Settings.jpg

AFR-EGR Control.jpg
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
9,335 Posts
Ed-

The 14point7 Spartan 3 actually runs the LSU ADV and NOT the LSU 4.9 that the Spartan 2 runs and most others. ...
You are correct Josh, my bad. The correct descriptor for the actual sensor is in fact the Bosch LSU ADV sensor, not the LSU 4.9 sensor which is an earlier design sensor that 14 Point 7 uses with their Spartan 2 systems.

Ed
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
94 Posts
I would definitely run widebands over the CAN bus. I have the Zeitronix, but if I had to do it over I'd go with the Spartans as I believe you can datalog them wirelessly. That'll be helpful when setting things up in case you need to double check readings.

Also, if you run the widebands through the standard inputs it uses up aux inputs. That doesn't happen with the CAN bus.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
9,335 Posts
I would definitely run widebands over the CAN bus. I have the Zeitronix, but if I had to do it over I'd go with the Spartans as I believe you can datalog them wirelessly. That'll be helpful when setting things up in case you need to double check readings.

Also, if you run the widebands through the standard inputs it uses up aux inputs. That doesn't happen with the CAN bus.
You're right about the consumption of standard inputs vs using the CAN bus, Bob. The CAN bus is also faster.

I didn't know you could datalog from the Spartan 3's wirelessly. I'm not saying you can't, I just didn't know you could however you can definitely datalog the Spartan 3's through the wireless capability that the MS3Pro offers.

Ed
 
1 - 20 of 21 Posts
Top