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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi there, just wondering is the stock intercooler really that much of a restriction as far as getting air through it? Is the upgrade worth it? I don't see a lot of data on it or threads out there about a before and after.

 

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I want to say MalcolmV8 and James at Cobra Engineering both compared the two ICs. I no longer have the hard numbers but, I seem to recall the VMP unit was a definite step in the right direction. Check out both their YouTube channels and I think you'll find additional information, Justin.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Right on thank you Ed, I'll do that and report back. I do remember Malcolm doing something on that now that you mention it.
 

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Justin, also, check out the LFP replacement intercooler. It is about half the price of the VMP unit, but I think is close to the VMP unit in heat dissipation, and it is 50¢ on the dollar.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 · (Edited)
Justin, also, check out the LFP replacement intercooler. It is about half the price of the VMP unit, but I think is close to the VMP unit in heat dissipation, and it is 50¢ on the dollar.
Oh yeah I see that very nice. Hey while I got you, what's your opinion on this. I'm on a 3.4 Whipple at 28 pounds, my best is a 9.81 @ 140. Do you think a ported 2.65 VMP at 28#'s would produce MORE power, more importantly better times at the track? I'm kind of thinking of changing things up and that's the reason for the intercooler thread. Because if I pull the bower I might as well upgrade the intercooler. I like the VMP because of their removable inlet.

Sorry off topic but that's the reason behind the thread.
 

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VMP is a good blower, so is the 3.4L Whipple. Whipple rotor technology has developed significantly since the 3.4L blower. They have 3.0L blowers that run 8.40s at 160+ in 03/04 Cobra's today. Click here => AJ's Ride
 

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I know this is cross posting a bit, but based on your IAT2's alone, it's not a restriction at where you were/are at (but we don't know the exact boost level you were running, and either way, you have something going on that is drastically effecting the power). The stock intercooler is quite efficient. With that said, every little bit helps and the VMP is an extremely nice piece. If you're replacing the intercooler, don't bother with the LFP, just go directly to the VMP with the cobra engineering manifold.

With the Whipple 3.0, the plugs are a bit easier to get to, no need to remove the inlet. I know it sucks on the 3.4. With the 3.0, easiest to remove the throttle body, then you can get to everything. If you remove the IAC on the elbow, even easier. Either way, not an issue.
 

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Justin, I didn't see your IAT2 temps. What are you seeing for IAT2 temps? Steve, where did you find the temps?

Back to Justin, what pulleys are you running on the 3.4L Whipple? If you can give us that information, the fuel system calculator can provide a pretty good approximation of the boost level the engine is seeing.

Steve's comments about the intercooler are correct. While a few notches down from optimum, the OEM intercooler is nonetheless pretty good until it starts to get plugged up. It is true that the fluid path in the VMP is much less restricted than the OEM piece, and even the LFP unit offers better fluid flow. The pregnant question is, is an $1800 IC package ($1,400 intercooler with a $400 coolant adapter) $1,000 better than an $800 LFP alternative?

As the OEM intercoolers age and the users do not maintain them by periodically cleaning and back-flushing them, their thermal performance deteriorates. Once the process becomes sufficiently advanced, the best fix available becomes a replacement. At the replacement threshold, you need to ask yourself the important question do I get $1,000 more performance out of the $1,800 package than I get out of the $800 package? If the car is a dedicated race car, the answer could be a yes — because it is about winning. However, if the car is a street-driven vehicle that is occasionally raced, the answer is — not likely!

AJ's car has never had anything but the OEM intercooler in it. With a T-400 auto and a 4000 or so stall converter, he has run into the low 8.40s and well over 160 mph. I believe he has low 8-second, possibly high 7-second potential at mid to high 160 mph trap speeds. I would save that extra $1,000 (and maybe $1,800) you are thinking about spending on a replacement IC and put it toward a 3.0L Whipple — it would be money much better spent. Take your existing IC to a radiator shop and have them back flush it, put it back on and use a noncorrosive IC fluid. Sell your 3.4L for whatever market is, and you will have a less expensive, more satisfying upgrade than the IC upgrade path you are currently contemplating.
 

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He sent me a log, downstream temps through the traps are low 120's starting at 90, which is really good for what he has, and also partially why I don't think his car is actually seeing 28#'s (belt slip?). Unfortunately, MAP was not being logged.

ETA: In fairness, it's not a full pass. Extrapolating (guessing), he lets off 7.5s in to the run, and the iat2's are 122 (starts at 90). Comparing it to my logs with the 3.4 whipple/stock longblock on a 6.0 1/8 and 9.4 1/4 pass, at 27 pounds, and the stock intercooler system, I start at 84*, see 120* 7.5 in to the run, and 125* through the traps. Or the stock intercooler system works fine either way, just not ideal with a 40* rise. As a comparison, with the 3.0 whipple (with VMP and cobra engineering adaptor), on my 8.6 pass and 28#'s, I start at 104* and pass through the traps at 129* (126* 7.5 seconds in to the run), or a 25* rise with more boost. It's the same icing for both, 1 bag precool, 2 bags for the pass.

On the intercooler, the budget way of squeaking out the most performance is modifying the intercooler manifold adapter while keeping the stock intercooler, arguably the most cost effective path. But you do have a good point of not knowing the condition of the stock intercooler.

For his goals, the 3.4 is capable of the number he wants with what he has.

Ed, my car has been 8.6's at 160mph second pass with the 3.0/th400, losing second gear, at 28#'s of boost and a couple hundred heavier than AJ (crossed the scales at 3642 pounds, I'm still a full stock interior car ). And 14.2* timing. I'll be back at the track on Friday finally to see if I can play with the tune. The 3.0 is a great blower, and I have no doubt that a bunch of us will be deep in the 8's early spring, if not within the next couple weeks. First pass off the trailer I made an 1/8 pass and went [email protected], second pass lost 2nd gear and let out before getting back on it but went [email protected] ([email protected] in the 1/8).
 

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That all makes sense now, Steve. At first, I thought I missed something in one of the posts, and then I was beginning to think you might be clairvoyant! :giggle:

Your experience with IAT2 temps with a 3.0L Whipple is spot on. The rotor profile used in the 3.0L blower is a more efficient profile with less leakage between the rotors and the case, which produces a cooler, denser charge at any given overdrive. Your performance numbers are also spot on with what I would expect from the engine in a Terminator chassis.

The 3.4L rotor profile is two, perhaps three generations earlier than the 3.0L compressors. The difference in rotor profiles accounts for the higher discharge temps on the 3.4L blower compared to a 3.0lL rotor at the same boost level. Your observations about the launch and quarter mile temps indicate how much more efficient the 3.0L rotor profile is.

Although the final decision always rests with the car owner, I would seriously consider keeping the OEM intercooler and, instead of upgrading to a TVS blower and intercooler, putting a 3.0L Whipple on the engine. A new G3 TVS for a Terminator is $4,500. The excellent VMP intercooler with the Cobra Engineering coolant adapter is another $1,800 for a total major parts cost of $6,300.

By comparison, a 3.0L Whipple for a Terminator is also $6,300 and provides a much higher ultimate performance level for the car. I am not sure of the current retail value of a used 3.4L compressor, but it would impact either purchase decision similarly, reducing the out-of-pocket upgrade expense. Therefore, my admittedly biased opinion is the 3.0L Whipple would produce a better performance improvement for the same dollar spent.

Again, however, the final arbiter is the man writing the check and whatever he chooses is, by definition, best for his ride.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Thank you for the insight Ed and Steve. My upper pulley is a Griptec 3.5" with a 6# (9.1" lower). I am leaning towards pulling the trigger on a 3.0L Whipple. I swear my 3.4 has got to be one of the first gens and changing spark plugs is a pain. So to hear Steve say the 3.0 Whipple is easier changing the plugs makes it way more appealing. Plus the new rotor pack like you mentioned Ed. What you said makes a lot of sense too Ed about breaking down the cost, would you guys get the race port on the 3.0 Whipple?
That all makes sense now, Steve. At first, I thought I missed something in one of the posts, and then I was beginning to think you might be clairvoyant! :giggle:

Your experience with IAT2 temps with a 3.0L Whipple is spot on. The rotor profile used in the 3.0L blower is a more efficient profile with less leakage between the rotors and the case, which produces a cooler, denser charge at any given overdrive. Your performance numbers are also spot on with what I would expect from the engine in a Terminator chassis.

The 3.4L rotor profile is two, perhaps three generations earlier than the 3.0L compressors. The difference in rotor profiles accounts for the higher discharge temps on the 3.4L blower compared to a 3.0lL rotor at the same boost level. Your observations about the launch and quarter mile temps indicate how much more efficient the 3.0L rotor profile is.

Although the final decision always rests with the car owner, I would seriously consider keeping the OEM intercooler and, instead of upgrading to a TVS blower and intercooler, putting a 3.0L Whipple on the engine. A new G3 TVS for a Terminator is $4,500. The excellent VMP intercooler with the Cobra Engineering coolant adapter is another $1,800 for a total major parts cost of $6,300.

By comparison, a 3.0L Whipple for a Terminator is also $6,300 and provides a much higher ultimate performance level for the car. I am not sure of the current retail value of a used 3.4L compressor, but it would impact either purchase decision similarly, reducing the out-of-pocket upgrade expense. Therefore, my admittedly biased opinion is the 3.0L Whipple would produce a better performance improvement for the same dollar spent.

Again, however, the final arbiter is the man writing the check and whatever he chooses is, by definition, best for his ride.
He sent me a log, downstream temps through the traps are low 120's starting at 90, which is really good for what he has, and also partially why I don't think his car is actually seeing 28#'s (belt slip?). Unfortunately, MAP was not being logged.

ETA: In fairness, it's not a full pass. Extrapolating (guessing), he lets off 7.5s in to the run, and the iat2's are 122 (starts at 90). Comparing it to my logs with the 3.4 whipple/stock longblock on a 6.0 1/8 and 9.4 1/4 pass, at 27 pounds, and the stock intercooler system, I start at 84*, see 120* 7.5 in to the run, and 125* through the traps. Or the stock intercooler system works fine either way, just not ideal with a 40* rise. As a comparison, with the 3.0 whipple (with VMP and cobra engineering adaptor), on my 8.6 pass and 28#'s, I start at 104* and pass through the traps at 129* (126* 7.5 seconds in to the run), or a 25* rise with more boost. It's the same icing for both, 1 bag precool, 2 bags for the pass.

On the intercooler, the budget way of squeaking out the most performance is modifying the intercooler manifold adapter while keeping the stock intercooler, arguably the most cost effective path. But you do have a good point of not knowing the condition of the stock intercooler.

For his goals, the 3.4 is capable of the number he wants with what he has.

Ed, my car has been 8.6's at 160mph second pass with the 3.0/th400, losing second gear, at 28#'s of boost and a couple hundred heavier than AJ (crossed the scales at 3642 pounds, I'm still a full stock interior car ). And 14.2* timing. I'll be back at the track on Friday finally to see if I can play with the tune. The 3.0 is a great blower, and I have no doubt that a bunch of us will be deep in the 8's early spring, if not within the next couple weeks. First pass off the trailer I made an 1/8 pass and went [email protected], second pass lost 2nd gear and let out before getting back on it but went [email protected] ([email protected] in the 1/8).
 

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... would you guys get the race port on the 3.0 Whipple?
Absolutely Justin! The race port does not adversely affect street performance. It just allows the blower to breathe easier (pull in closer to its actual 3.0L displacement) with each rotation of the rotor pack. Think of it as the difference between having your throttle wide open vs three-quarters open. It is really that simple. Notwithstanding its naming convention, it is the absolute right thing to do.
 

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I have the whipple race port, other than cost, there are no downsides. The cost is not insignificant though, just as the intercooler discussion went. Most all of us running the quicker numbers have ported blowers, some race ported, others by outside companies. What seems most prevailing with the port is that it allows all the boost far past the RPM's that any of us run them, it never runs out of steam. It's supposed to run cooler as well, though I think it's an insignificant and irrelevant amount. For your current goals (and far exceeding them), you really don't need the race port. The 3.0 without will achieve them, but so will that 3.4 that you have.

On the 3.4 crusher, for the number 3 and 4 cylinder, I used a combination of 1/4" swivels, extensions and adapters, as well as some 3/8. Once you have a dedicated setup taped together just for those cylinders, it goes quick. On the 3.0, you need one 3/8 swivel, 6" extension and that's it for the number 4.
 
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