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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hey everyone. Havent posted in a while. I had a non mod motor project going and then fixed up my house in Colorado and moved to Oklahoma. Still looking for a place here so Im kind of in limbo but with the difference in housing costs Ill be able to get a good house and have a nice shop which Im really looking forward to.
Anyway my next project is to put a 4.6 4 valve with a VMP 2650 in a 92 coupe. Ive started to get some things to that end and I am making plans. Any tips on the swap are appreciated
My last project also had a PD supercharger but it was a pushrod motor. I did my own tuning and learned quite a bit with some help of course. The motor was originally intended to be NA and so has a static compression of 10:1. A little worisome with boost but its intercooled and Im using meth injection. At colorado altitude I was barely able to make 13 lbs of boost. I started out at 16 degrees of timing and an A/F ratio (I was measuring in Lambda) of around .8 under boost. Anything lower than .76 and it would stumble. I eventually had the timing up to 22 degrees at max boost. I would start at 34 and ramp timing down as boost went up. It pulled like hell with that set up. Now that Im here where the elevation is about 4000 feet lower, based on Eds calculator, i expect to make at least 15 or 16 lbs of boost with the same pulley combo. I can get 93, 94, and 100 octane gas here where I was limited to 91 before. I havent had a chance to play with it here yet as all my stuff is still in storage but Im curious to see what happens. To be safe I will be dropping the timing back to 16ish to start

Which brings me back to the new project. I am shooting for this to be another pump gas motor with air to water intercooler and meth injection. This time though I will be starting with 9: compression. Based on that and shooting for 20-23 lbs of boost what sort of numbers should I be going for in terms of timing and A/F.
 

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My 04 engine is stock. I'm currently at 20psi, but the car spends most of the time on E85. I do occasionally run 91, but I wouldn't do that with 20psi if I didn't have the stand alone with a knock sensor. If I was still on the stock ECU I'd keep it at 18psi on 91 octane and swap pullies for E85.

For A/F I aim for 11.5 on a pump gas scale. It makes about 700rwhp. At least it out ran a car that made 707rwhp on the dyno.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Thats great for a stock motor.
I will be going with an MS3 Pro ECU. This motor will not be stock. The plan is Gibtec pistons 9:1, I have a set of Manley I beam rods, the heads are ported and of course Ill be doing head and main studs.

After this project is done I have a 5.4 that I want to turbo and that motor will run on E85. I kind of just wanted to see what I could do with pump gas on this one
 

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Pump Gas and Meth? Get one of these:

This little unit is the Cats Meow when tuning combos like yours! For tuning - if there is any knock an LED will light up then you can simply spray a bit more meth until the lights don't go on then you know you are spraying enough meth to prevent knock. In addition if any knock does happen the system pulls timing until no more knock then slowly adds it back. This little unit could save a lot of parts when knock appears. It works fantastic. I was running 25psi on 91oct/meth with this little unit keeping a watchful eye on my motor.

I also run MSPro along with the Vampire b/c it's more sophisticated not to mention I prefer to have multiple systems monitoring my engine. There's a lot of info on the Vampire on here.

ks
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Pump Gas and Meth? Get one of these:

This little unit is the Cats Meow when tuning combos like yours! For tuning - if there is any knock an LED will light up then you can simply spray a bit more meth until the lights don't go on then you know you are spraying enough meth to prevent knock. In addition if any knock does happen the system pulls timing until no more knock then slowly adds it back. This little unit could save a lot of parts when knock appears. It works fantastic. I was running 25psi on 91oct/meth with this little unit keeping a watchful eye on my motor.

I also run MSPro along with the Vampire b/c it's more sophisticated not to mention I prefer to have multiple systems monitoring my engine. There's a lot of info on the Vampire on here.

ks
Ed has talked at length about the Vampire. It sounds like an awesome safeguard and I do intend to make use of that. I don't have the money that I can just blow stuff up and replace it so reliability is a big factor for me

What kind of timing are you running on your set up
 

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Ed has talked at length about the Vampire. It sounds like an awesome safeguard and I do intend to make use of that. I don't have the money that I can just blow stuff up and replace it so reliability is a big factor for me

What kind of timing are you running on your set up
Mine's a 2V mod so the timing won't be the same but when running 91/meth the most we could get was 11* and made 720hp at 25psi. Any more timing than this and power fell off. Now it's a flex fuel car so I don't use the meth although it's still on the car. On E85 the timing is 14.5* at 32-33psi.... I don't use boost when running on 91oct..

ks
 
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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Mine's a 2V mod so the timing won't be the same but when running 91/meth the most we could get was 11* and made 720hp at 25psi. Any more timing than this and power fell off. Now it's a flex fuel car so I don't use the meth although it's still on the car. On E85 the timing is 14.5* at 32-33psi.... I don't use boost when running on 91oct..

ks
So Ive never done a mod motor or know anyone personally who has. On my push rod motor if I was running 14 degrees of timing it would be a dog. Is that something specific to overhead cam motors that you dont need as much timing?
 

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So Ive never done a mod motor or know anyone personally who has. On my push rod motor if I was running 14 degrees of timing it would be a dog. Is that something specific to overhead cam motors that you dont need as much timing?
I don't think so but I'm not sure. I've compared my timing to others and it seems that mine is an oddball with this low of timing. When switching to E85 we were hoping to end up with around 18* but no matter what we did power fell off when going that high so we tuned it to what it liked and called it good. It makes 900hp/820tq by 6200rpm so it must not be suffering too much. All these numbers were through full length exhaust with three mufflers and through a 4R70 trans. Maybe due to the exhaust/trans combo the required timing is affected compared to others running open exhaust...I dunno..

ks
 
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Kevin has actually pretty much played chapter and verse of what I would have said. I will add the following, having a good handle on your timing, fueling and plug choices will go a long ways towards making your job easier. There is a recent addition to the TToC titled How to Read Plugs (<= clickable ) in the Tuning section. It will go a long way to answering your question about timing. Towards the end it strays into some other peripherally related matters but I think it will help you get answers specific to your build.

BTW, I can not recommend John Pizzuto's Vampire strongly enough. For a n/a motor detonation is an interesting for the most part intellectual phenomena. For a supercharged engine, especially using gas, the higher charge volumes and densities in the combustion chamber at ignition will destroy an engine in a New York minute. The How to Read Plugs write up will provide you some graphic visuals.
 

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My understanding is the 2v heads can't take as much timing because of the chamber design. But then I've mostly been talking to Lightning guys about that stuff.

My E85 table is set to 21 degrees. The 91 table is at 14. And I have the knock sensors turned way up. They've already saved my engine a couple times when my fueling went weird. I also have the A/F safety guard turned on.
 

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.... I have the knock sensors turned way up. They've already saved my engine a couple times when my fueling went weird. I also have the A/F safety guard turned on.
The first time I got into boost was after I bought the car and after I installed the Vampire. The car was initially tuned on 93 and made 720 @ 20psi by someone else but I wasn't going to trust a pump gas tune until I could monitor KR. I installed the Vampire then dialed the boost to 7psi and with 91oct the knock gauge lit up like a Christmas tree ... ALL the LED's lit up and at 7psi! I never got into boost after that until I had meth inj installed.

ks
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
The first time I got into boost was after I bought the car and after I installed the Vampire. The car was initially tuned on 93 and made 720 @ 20psi by someone else but I wasn't going to trust a pump gas tune until I could monitor KR. I installed the Vampire then dialed the boost to 7psi and with 91oct the knock gauge lit up like a Christmas tree ... ALL the LED's lit up and at 7psi! I never got into boost after that until I had meth inj installed.

ks
I have a friend back in Colorado that just bought a 2017 this fall with a PD supercharger on it. He doesnt know a lot about cars and took it to a shop that did a tune for him and put a smaller pulley on it. Im pretty sure everything was stock on the motor and he just runs 91 in it. Im not even sure how much boost hes making cause he doesnt have a gauge yet but I think he said it made 650 on the dyno before the pulley change. I know its too much for the tires in almost every gear. Must be the VCT on the coyote motor that keeps it from detonating?
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Kevin has actually pretty much played chapter and verse of what I would have said. I will add the following, having a good handle on your timing, fueling and plug choices will go a long ways towards making your job easier. There is a recent addition to the TToC titled How to Read Plugs (<= clickable ) in the Tuning section. It will go a long way to answering your question about timing. Towards the end it strays into some other peripherally related matters but I think it will help you get answers specific to your build.

BTW, I can not recommend John Pizzuto's Vampire strongly enough. For a n/a motor detonation is an interesting for the most part intellectual phenomena. For a supercharged engine, especially using gas, the higher charge volumes and densities in the combustion chamber at ignition will destroy an engine in a New York minute. The How to Read Plugs write up will provide you some graphic visuals.
So with respect to reading plugs on my other project I would get that white haze on the plugs which I assume was from the meth injection? Is it different with straight methanol or are the characteristics youre talking about seen in either circumstance?

And just as an aside would that whole description be the same on an iridium plug?
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Kevin has actually pretty much played chapter and verse of what I would have said. I will add the following, having a good handle on your timing, fueling and plug choices will go a long ways towards making your job easier. There is a recent addition to the TToC titled How to Read Plugs (<= clickable ) in the Tuning section. It will go a long way to answering your question about timing. Towards the end it strays into some other peripherally related matters but I think it will help you get answers specific to your build.

BTW, I can not recommend John Pizzuto's Vampire strongly enough. For a n/a motor detonation is an interesting for the most part intellectual phenomena. For a supercharged engine, especially using gas, the higher charge volumes and densities in the combustion chamber at ignition will destroy an engine in a New York minute. The How to Read Plugs write up will provide you some graphic visuals.
With respect to the Vampire, Are you using the bosch sensors?

And do you just use just one on each side of the block for individual cylinder control?

And whats a good spot for placement of the sensor?
 

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With respect to the Vampire, Are you using the bosch sensors?

And do you just use just one on each side of the block for individual cylinder control?

And whats a good spot for placement of the sensor?
Only one sensor is needed and mine is on the side of the block near the driver side motor mount and I'm using whatever came with the kit. The Vampire is tied into the firing order so it knows which cylinder is firing and or knocking and can pull timing from that one cylinder or any cylinder that it detects knock happening. If one cylinder knocks then you can set it to pull timing on all cylinders or only the ones that are knocking.
A good place is pretty much anywhere that has a solid surface to mount the sensor. The sensor needs direct contact to the block and from this it can pickup on the frequencies that a knocking cylinder produces. J&S has had good results with cars using the motor mount bolt as long as it's all metal-to-metal contact, no rubber/poly separating the sensor from the block, but I would definitely find a spot on the block if possible.

ks
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Only one sensor is needed and mine is on the side of the block near the driver side motor mount and I'm using whatever came with the kit. The Vampire is tied into the firing order so it knows which cylinder is firing and or knocking and can pull timing from that one cylinder or any cylinder that it detects knock happening. If one cylinder knocks then you can set it to pull timing on all cylinders or only the ones that are knocking.
A good place is pretty much anywhere that has a solid surface to mount the sensor. The sensor needs direct contact to the block and from this it can pickup on the frequencies that a knocking cylinder produces. J&S has had good results with cars using the motor mount bolt as long as it's all metal-to-metal contact, no rubber/poly separating the sensor from the block, but I would definitely find a spot on the block if possible.

ks
Cool. Yeah that makes sense
 

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The first time I got into boost was after I bought the car and after I installed the Vampire. The car was initially tuned on 93 and made 720 @ 20psi by someone else but I wasn't going to trust a pump gas tune until I could monitor KR. I installed the Vampire then dialed the boost to 7psi and with 91oct the knock gauge lit up like a Christmas tree ... ALL the LED's lit up and at 7psi! I never got into boost after that until I had meth inj installed.

ks
Your set up is a little more on edge than mine. I've made adjustments to force the knock sensor to work just to check it out and everything worked as it should.

I'll add that when the knock sensor went off I was running E85. Something happened to my VE table and caused it to run way lean.
 

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So with respect to reading plugs on my other project I would get that white haze on the plugs which I assume was from the meth injection? Is it different with straight methanol or are the characteristics youre talking about seen in either circumstance?
Straight methanol will give a denser talcum powder coating but it is still a talcum powdered appearing surface.

And just as an aside would that whole description be the same on an iridium plug?
Yes with the exception of the center electrode heat signature which will be slightly more difficult to see on the iridium.


With respect to the Vampire, Are you using the bosch sensors?
Single OEM sensor (Bosch) attached to a motor mount stud using a step stud from McMaster Carr.

And do you just use just one on each side of the block for individual cylinder control?
No because of the cylinder sensing logic John uses. The Vampire can see which cylinder fired last. When it hears a knock signature it knows it has to come from that last cylinder to fire. The others are too far advanced in the power stroke to be capable of knocking.

And whats a good spot for placement of the sensor?
I like a stepped stud in one of the motor mount bolt holes.

BTW, while I recognize you are addressing the questions to me, Kevin is nailing the answers, dead on in his responses.
 

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Something to be sensitive to whenever tuning for any octane rating but especially for 91 octane. A bad tank of gas with the octane depressed to 89 or so can do impressive damage to an engine, so be careful to allow for that in your tuning.
 
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