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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
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With the cylinder wall finish being so critical for ring seal and power would you risk the possibility of a poor hone job by partnering with a machine shop that uses an old non CNC hone machine?
 

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OK Jan, I'll bite. My first question is how much horsepower do you loose by using a CK-10?
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 · (Edited)
OK Jan, I'll bite. My first question is how much horsepower do you loose by using a CK-10?
Good question, I don’t have a specific answer. I will say that a Sunnen CK-10 hone needs a highly skilled operator to run it as the pressure that the honing stones exert on the cylinder walls, number of stones, strokes can vary depending on the skill level of the machinist operating the CK 10 and the end result is the possibility of a less than optimal cylinder wall finish that will in turn cause a reduction in ring seal , less power and increased blow by.

On the other hand, big teams such as Roush Yates use the Rottler CNC hone because not only will the CNC produce the finish speciation you need every time , it can measure the cylinder wall for taper and bore size throughout the entire cylinder as it’s being honed.

Of course another big reason Roush Yates engines uses a Rottler CNC hone is that a engine cylinder honing operation that used to take over six hours is now done in 45 minutes.
 

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All interesting qualitative attributes but so far no tangible, quantitative horsepower reason to use the CNC hone. Soooo, back to the original question, what is the tangible reason in the horsepower domain to use the CNC hone?

i.e. how much additional torque and horsepower does it produce vs something like an old CK-10?
 

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The Sunnen mahcines will produce a bore with straightness and roundness beyond what is required for even the highest performing engines. As you mentioned the stone selection and number is probably the biggest variable that plays into cross hatching and ring seal on break in. Those still have to be selected by a skilled operator regardless of the machine. The CNC machines may take a little guess work out of it but they are still far from fool proof. I would not second guess using a machine shop with a good track record and old school equipment
 
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You are spot-on Tommy! I think when all the arm-waving and technobabble is over, the answer is that the real benefit of the machine is to cut down the manhours required to finish a block to an assembly-ready condition. I don't believe there is any measurable horsepower difference in the finished work product that is meaningful. There is however, a significant labor content difference in the job that is meaningful to the shop.

The bottom line is the benefits that accrue from the use of this type of machinery belong exclusively to the shop, not to the customer. It is simply a reduction in the labor content of the shop's service offering. The more specialized equipment allows a specific job, in this case honing, to be accomplished in less time making it more profitable for the shop and not any meaningful difference in engine power output for the customer.
 

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You are spot-on Tommy! I think when all the arm-waving and technobabble is over, the answer is that the real benefit of the machine is to cut down the manhours required to finish a block to an assembly-ready condition. I don't believe there is any measurable horsepower difference in the finished work product that is meaningful. There is however, a significant labor content difference in the job that is meaningful to the shop.

The bottom line is the benefits that accrue from the use of this type of machinery belong exclusively to the shop, not to the customer. It is simply a reduction in the labor content of the shop's service offering. The more specialized equipment allows a specific job, in this case honing, to be accomplished in less time making it more profitable for the shop and not any meaningful difference in engine power output for the customer.
Let's be honest. He just wants to do this so he can sound cool after the engine is built. Just like using a dry sump set up that isn't really needed.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Let's be honest. He just wants to do this so he can sound cool after the engine is built. Just like using a dry sump set up that isn't really needed.
How can you be sure that a dry sump system is not needed for my build when you don’t even know the details of my mod motor combination or how I intend to use it?
 

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I totally agree, the kind of machine is not the most important.
A very competent operator of the particular machine, may be not the latest greatest is much more important than a poor operator on a very high sofisticated machine.
I have seen this too many times
 

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How can you be sure that a dry sump system is not needed for my build when you don’t even know the details of my mod motor combination or how I intend to use it?
Let's play Devil's Advocate one more time, Jan.

So our minds are not cluttered with superfluous and potentially irrelevant data, why don't you explain to us one more time both how and why you have determined that the Dailey dry sump system is needed/required for your build. FWIW I think everyone sees the Dailey dry sump system as a premium dry-sump alternative, it is just not clear (to any of us) why it is required for your build.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Let's play Devil's Advocate, one more time Jan.

So our minds are not cluttered with superfluous and potentially irrelevant data, why don't you explain to us one more time both how and why you have determined that the Dailey dry sump system is needed/required for your build. FWIW I think everyone sees the Dailey dry sump system as a premium dry-sump alternative, it is just not clear (to any of us) why it is required for your build.
Well, a very simple explanation for you would be that I want a 1000+ hp mod motor with custom JE pistons and other premium parts to survive being driven in anger around a road course and half mile events and since I’m spending a lot of time and money on the engine build, I want to avoid experiencing an engine failure so to that end, a dry sump system will increase reliability by eliminating oil system failures.

some people might see the dry sump system as a luxury but would you rather spend Some money now on a dry sump system to protect your engine or would you go without it and risk damaging an Expensive mod motor later on down the road?

I have seen with my own eyes several wet sump mod motor mustangs driven hard on a road course experience oil system failures so that is reason enough for me to include a dry sump system in my mustang.

And I didn’t even talk about the increased power benefit that a dry sump system has over a wet sump oil system.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
The Sunnen mahcines will produce a bore with straightness and roundness beyond what is required for even the highest performing engines. As you mentioned the stone selection and number is probably the biggest variable that plays into cross hatching and ring seal on break in. Those still have to be selected by a skilled operator regardless of the machine. The CNC machines may take a little guess work out of it but they are still far from fool proof. I would not second guess using a machine shop with a good track record and old school equipment
I agree that a key component in a search for a competent machine shop would be to partner with a shop with a proven reputation to deliver quality machine work for the racing community.
 

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Well, a very simple explanation for you would be that I want a 1000+ hp mod motor with custom JE pistons and other premium parts to survive being driven in anger around a road course and half mile events and since I’m spending a lot of time and money on the engine build, I want to avoid experiencing an engine failure so to that end, a dry sump system will increase reliability by eliminating oil system failures.
So, once again, what we have here is a qualitative explanation without any quantitative data but a stated personal preference.


some people might see the dry sump system as a luxury but would you rather spend Some money now on a dry sump system to protect your engine or would you go without it and risk damaging an Expensive mod motor later on down the road?
While there are clearly some engine failures that have occurred the obvious question is what was the cause of failure and why did only a few fail and not a wholesale portion of the cars running the engine?

What we have here, again, are personal preferences absent any quantitative data to support the supposition.


I have seen with my own eyes several wet sump mod motor mustangs driven hard on a road course experience oil system failures so that is reason enough for me to include a dry sump system in my mustang.
All you have seen is some number of engine failure(s) presumably from an oiling system related. That said, unless you have done after-the-fact investigations into the source of the failure(s), you possess no evidence to attribute the failure to an inadequate on-track oil system. Notwithstanding the lack of any supporting forensic evidence, you did observe a failure and you did attribute it to a lack of a dry-sump oiling system. You also have presented no evidence, other than personal opinion, to prove the inadequacy of the non-dry-sump oil system.

Again, more personal preferences absent any quantitative data to support the supposition.


And I didn’t even talk about the increased power benefit that a dry-sump system has over a wet-sump oil system.

While dry-sump style oil systems have regularly demonstrated power improvements over their wet-sump alternatives, the represented 1000Hp+ power level you attribute to your not yet completed engine surely exceeds your car's ability to apply that level of power, in its entirety, to a racecourse. When you consider that the vehicle is already overpowered for the type of competition you are anticipating, why is there value in increasing an already unusably high amount of power in the vehicle?

Once again, personal preferences absent any quantitative data to support the supposition.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
So, once again, what we have here is a qualitative explanation without any quantitative data but a stated personal preference.




While there are clearly some engine failures that have occurred the obvious question is what was the cause of failure and why did only a few fail and not a wholesale portion of the cars running the engine?

What we have here, again, are personal preferences absent any quantitative or qualitative data to support the supposition.




All you have seen is some number of engine failure(s) presumably from an oiling system related. That said, unless you have done after-the-fact investigations into the source of the failure(s), you possess no evidence to attribute the failure to an inadequate on-track oil system. Notwithstanding the lack of any supporting forensic evidence, you did observe a failure and you did attribute it to a lack of a dry-sump oiling system. You also have presented no evidence, other than personal opinion, to prove the inadequacy of the non-dry-sump oil system.

What we have here, again, are personal preferences absent any qualitative data to support the supposition.





While dry-sump style oil systems have regularly demonstrated power improvements over their wet-sump alternatives, the represented 1000Hp+ power level you attribute to your not yet completed engine surely exceeds your car's ability to apply that level of power, in its entirety, to a racecourse. When you consider that the vehicle is already overpowered for the type of competition you are anticipating, why is there value in increasing an already unusably high amount of power in the vehicle?

What we have here, again, are personal preferences absent any qualitative data to support the supposition.
Thank you for responding although I disagree with most what you are saying. Of course you are not the only one to incorrectly assume that an SN95 mustang is unable to transmit over a 1000hp to the road.

As far as presenting evidence about the value of a dry sump system, the only person I need to present evidence to is myself because it’s my my build and I’m the one spending the money.
 

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Thank you for responding although I disagree with most what you are saying. Of course you are not the only one to incorrectly assume that an SN95 mustang is unable to transmit over a 1000hp to the road.

As far as presenting evidence about the value of a dry sump system, the only person I need to present evidence to is myself because it’s my my build and I’m the one spending the money.
With respect to it being your build and your money, you are absolutely correct, Jan. When you pull up a product and begin proselytizing about it, however, you start tipping the scale in the wrong direction. For example:

Even though you may be able to get by without a dry sump oil system on the street, controlling windage and eliminating pumping losses by putting the crankcase under a vacuum results in a considerable power gain as piston ring seal is improved and the motor no longer has to fight against a pressurized crankcase or oil hammering on the crankshaft. Plus, a dry sump system will look after your engine by eliminating bearing wear so for those reasons, I am considering the use of a dry sump system ...
Your commentary about controlling windage, and eliminating pumping losses resulting in considerable power is misleading. The way it is presented a reader could interpret the commentary to represent a greater power gain than say a pulley change on the blower overdrive — when in fact the pulley change has greater upside potential and dramatically lower costs.

Once oil gets to the crankcase it is no longer pressurized as you indicate it is. It is olny pressurized by the oil pump while it is in the main oil galley and the tributary paths to the various bearings used in the engine. Your representation about a dry sump system looking after your engine by eliminating bearing wear is again misleading. The oil system does not look after any part of the engine. It is a passive hydraulic pump distributing lubricant to load-bearing surfaces in the engine. It does not eliminate bearing wear. It does supply a continuous supply of oil to the engine under almost all operating conditions.

The shafts in Journal Bearings are supported on a hydrodynamic wedge of oil. The hydrodynamic oil wedge is independent of both the oil pump and/or the oil system design. The only prerequisite for it to work is there needs to be a continuous supply of oil, without aeration, of sufficient viscosity to support the operating load in the bearing system. The following picture gives a visual rendition of the process;

Slope Font Parallel Circle Diagram


In simple terms after the oil pump introduces the oil to the journal bearing mechanism, the rotating journal draws the lubricant under increasing lubicant pressure (created by the rotating journal) to the location identified as Pmax in the pic above. The journal never touches the bearing and the journal "floats" on a hydrodynamic wedge of oil protecting both the journal surface and the bearing surface.

The only thing a good dry sump contributes to this process is the de-aeration of the oil, if the system uses a de-aerator in the pump design, and certainly also a large oil capacity w/o a large oil pan. Dailey does all this and it is one of the best offerings currently available. Yes, a dry sump system does provide some negative crankcase pressure in scavenging the oil. Yes, this is supposed to provide good things, and yes when you see how small the power improvement is you will be heading back to the pulley drawer again for a smaller blower pulley.

While you are certainly entitled to do whatever you may want with your build choices, the lack of factual data in your representations of advantages for whatever your then-current favorite product of the day might be, coupled with your qualitative rather than quantitative representations of the benefits associated with using the product is simply misleading. Please refrain from those sorts of statements.

If you have found a new item that most members are likely to not know of, please share the knowledge. Please do not proselytize, make unsubstantiated, qualitative claims about power improvements attributable to these items unless of course, you have some real data and knowledge to share that demonstrates your representations. It is noteworthy that many, but by no means all, of the dry sump benefits can be realized with oil accumulator type products like an AccuSump and thoughtful oil pan design, at a much lower price point.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
With respect to it being your build and your money, you are absolutely correct, Jan. When you pull up a product and begin proselytizing about it, however, you start tipping the scale in the wrong direction. For example:



Your commentary about controlling windage, and eliminating pumping losses resulting in considerable power is misleading. The way it is presented a reader could interpret the commentary to represent a greater power gain than say a pulley change on the blower overdrive — when in fact the pulley change has greater upside potential and dramatically lower costs.

Once oil gets to the crankcase it is no longer pressurized as you indicate it is. It is olny pressurized by the oil pump while it is in the main oil galley and the tributary paths to the various bearings used in the engine. Your representation about a dry sump system looking after your engine by eliminating bearing wear is again misleading. The oil system does not look after any part of the engine. It is a passive hydraulic pump distributing lubricant to load-bearing surfaces in the engine. It does not eliminate bearing wear. It does supply a continuous supply of oil to the engine under almost all operating conditions.

The shafts in Journal Bearings are supported on a hydrodynamic wedge of oil. The hydrodynamic oil wedge is independent of both the oil pump and/or the oil system design. The only prerequisite for it to work is there needs to be a continuous supply of oil, without aeration, of sufficient viscosity to support the operating load in the bearing system. The following picture gives a visual rendition of the process;

View attachment 176076

In simple terms after the oil pump introduces the oil to the journal bearing mechanism, the rotating journal draws the lubricant under increasing lubicant pressure (created by the rotating journal) to the location identified as Pmax in the pic above. The journal never touches the bearing and the journal "floats" on a hydrodynamic wedge of oil protecting both the journal surface and the bearing surface.

The only thing a good dry sump contributes to this process is the de-aeration of the oil, if the system uses a de-aerator in the pump design, and certainly also a large oil capacity w/o a large oil pan. Dailey does all this and it is one of the best offerings currently available. Yes, a dry sump system does provide some negative crankcase pressure in scavenging the oil. Yes, this is supposed to provide good things, and yes when you see how small the power improvement is you will be heading back to the pulley drawer again for a smaller blower pulley.

While you are certainly entitled to do whatever you may want with your build choices, the lack of factual data in your representations of advantages for whatever your then-current favorite product of the day might be, coupled with your qualitative rather than quantitative representations of the benefits associated with using the product is simply misleading. Please refrain from those sorts of statements.

If you have found a new item that most members are likely to not know of, please share the knowledge. Please do not proselytize, make unsubstantiated, qualitative claims about power improvements attributable to these items unless of course, you have some real data and knowledge to share that demonstrates your representations. It is noteworthy that many, but by no means all, of the dry sump benefits can be realized with oil accumulator type products like an AccuSump and thoughtful oil pan design, at a much lower price point.
Sorry to say this, but your response is full of incorrect information. For example, you say that an in a wet sump engine, the crankcase is not pressurized and that is incorrect. You should know that depending on the condition of the cylinder walls and the piston rings, a certain amount of combustion gases will go past the rings and pressurize the crank case.

you should also know that in road course engines, using a wet sump oil system, even one with a fancy oil pan that has trap doors, Windage trays, etc, the oil still finds a way to hammer the crankshaft or move away from the oil pick up tube and the end result of those conditions is the creation of air bubbles in the oil system, a loss of oil pressure and thus bearing damage. A dry sump oil system eliminates those common oil system issues so it does indeed look after the engine.

Moving right along, I find your dry sump to blower pulley cost comparison interesting. There will always be a good debate about the cost to reward ratio of an upgrade, but I doubt that most people are not going to have a debate over the cost and comparison of a dry sump system vs a blower pulley change.
 

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Sorry to say this, but your response is full of incorrect information. For example, you say that an in a wet sump engine, the crankcase is not pressurized and that is incorrect. You should know that depending on the condition of the cylinder walls and the piston rings, a certain amount of combustion gases will go past the rings and pressurize the crank case.
That is not what was said, Jan. To know what was said, it is necessary to actually read and also understand the words. You are either not reading the words or perhaps you are choosing to play fast and loose with the words. The words said;

Once oil gets to the crankcase it is no longer pressurized as you indicate it is. It is only pressurized by the oil pump while it is in the main oil galley and all the various tributary paths to the various bearings used in the engine.
There is no pressurized oil in the crankcase that is not in an engine oil galley — details matter.


you should also know that in road course engines, using a wet sump oil system, even one with a fancy oil pan that has trap doors, Windage trays, etc, the oil still finds a way to hammer the crankshaft
Oil never 'hammers' the crankshaft in an engine. You should know that and you should also stop spreading misinformation. The crankshaft rotates in a fog of oil and oil vapor that places a drag on the crankshaft. Various methods of reducing the drag include shaping the leading edges of the rotating crankshaft counterweights with rounded noses or pointed noses to reduce this windage effect, micro polishing the crankshaft counterweights, and yes using a dry sump oil system. The actual counterweight treatment(s) available depends on the crank manufacturer you choose and the directions you provide to them. More importantly, it is the crank hitting the oil not the other way around. It is a misrepresentation of what is happening to state that the oil hammers the crankshaft — again, details matter.


or move away from the oil pick up tube and the end result of those conditions is the creation of air bubbles in the oil system, a loss of oil pressure and thus bearing damage. A dry sump oil system eliminates those common oil system issues so it does indeed look after the engine.
This is your misinformation machine at work, yet again. You seem to be quite adept at this. It is impressive how much you know, that isn't true.

While the movement of oil away from the pickup can cause the oil pump to momentarily draw air instead of oil that is an oil pan design issue. Properly designed, the oil pan will keep the pickup submerged in oil. The oil is aerated by the crankshaft passing through the fog of oil vapor and oil droplets in the crankcase. Like a blender, on your kitchen countertop, when you turn it on, it both mixes the contents and also introduces air into the mixture — it literally aerates the beverage. Your crankshaft does the exact same thing to the oil and oil fog in the crankcase.

A properly designed oil pan, with adequate oil volume, provides the necessary time for those air bubbles, that have been introduced by the rotating crankshaft, to float to the top of the oil in the sump and escape leaving a non-aerated volume covering the pickup for lubrication purposes. For on-track conditions where an extended turn left or right is sustained with adequately high 'g' forces to uncover the pickup prior to the vehicle exiting the turn, either an oil accumulator or a dry sump system is necessary to protect the engine.

The various oil accumulators, such as those available from Canton and Moroso, do an excellent job of this at a price point far below that of a dry sump system. If you are racing your car on a high banked oval at speeds exceeding 170 mph there can be advantages to a good dry sump system. For a course with only left turns a purpose-built wet sump oiling system can be surprisingly effective. In any event, I don't believe you will be racing your car in that type of event or on that type of course.


Moving right along, I find your dry sump to blower pulley cost comparison interesting. There will always be a good debate about the cost to reward ratio of an upgrade, but I doubt that most people are not going to have a debate over the cost and comparison of a dry sump system vs a blower pulley change.
Well for once you seem to be right. A $100 or so, blower pulley price does pale in comparison to a $4, XXX.00 dry sump system. This is an excellent comparison of dollars spent vs horsepower gained. Holding up a dry sump system as a way to gain horsepower is not inaccurate, it is however foolish. At the front of the common sense parade, dry sump systems are oiling systems that also produce incremental gains in power by reducing windage within the crankcase.

If you are looking for additional horsepower and buy a dry sump system for that purpose you will be disappointed. You don't buy dry sump systems as a solution to a search for additional power. The blower pulley will cost orders of magnitude less money and produce way more power. Buying a dry sump system to produce more engine power would be the equivalent of buying a thousand-dollar surgeon's scalpel to carve a Thanksgiving Turkey. You would be happier and money ahead to buy a $20 electric knife at retail.

This thread, from the CNC Rottler hone to the latest dry sump postings, represents a rather broad-based misinformation initiative on your part. If I give you the benefit of the doubt and say you really didn't realize black is not white and white is not black, your threads and the misinformation you disseminate is still pollution of the site which impacts those other people who actually come here to learn.

You currently have two non-expiring warnings about this and other unacceptable behaviors you like to practice. If you persist in this sort of behavior you will acquire a third warning. To say this another way, you will self-ban — all by yourself. Quite an accomplishment!

I would encourage you to choose your words and your messaging more carefully going forward.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Ed, you and I will continue to disagree on the topic of dry sump systems so I’ll leave it at that. Finally, I will say that everything I have said in regards to dry sump oil systems is backed up by the fine folks at KRE Race Engines - Race Winning Sprintcar and V8 Supercar Engines and thus accurate.

And in case you did not know, KRE race engines supplies race engines to the majority of the Australian V8 Supercars series. Therefore I am confident that the information I presented in this thread concerning dry sump oil systems is accurate and backed up by facts.
 

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Ed, you and I will continue to disagree on the topic of dry sump systems so I’ll leave it at that. Finally, I will say that everything I have said in regards to dry sump oil systems is backed up by the fine folks at KRE Race Engines - Race Winning Sprintcar and V8 Supercar Engines and thus accurate.

And in case you did not know, KRE race engines supplies race engines to the majority of the Australian V8 Supercars series. Therefore I am confident that the information I presented in this thread concerning dry sump oil systems is accurate and backed up by facts.

I have no doubt your quoted sources provide reliable information, Jan. The challenge you have is gleaning the information from the written word. Your ability to read and assimilate the information an author provides is heavily discounted. Witness the statements you misread, misinterpreted, and then incorrectly restated from my own posts and they were immediately in front of your eyes as you were challenging them. Step back from the hyperbole, hero-worship, and marketing hype. Just stick to the core facts and you will do much better. Try being quantitative and not qualitative in your product evaluations and representations — it will serve you much better.
 
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