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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
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With the cylinder wall finish being so critical for ring seal and power would you risk the possibility of a poor hone job by partnering with a machine shop that uses an old non CNC hone machine?
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 · (Edited)
OK Jan, I'll bite. My first question is how much horsepower do you loose by using a CK-10?
Good question, I don’t have a specific answer. I will say that a Sunnen CK-10 hone needs a highly skilled operator to run it as the pressure that the honing stones exert on the cylinder walls, number of stones, strokes can vary depending on the skill level of the machinist operating the CK 10 and the end result is the possibility of a less than optimal cylinder wall finish that will in turn cause a reduction in ring seal , less power and increased blow by.

On the other hand, big teams such as Roush Yates use the Rottler CNC hone because not only will the CNC produce the finish speciation you need every time , it can measure the cylinder wall for taper and bore size throughout the entire cylinder as it’s being honed.

Of course another big reason Roush Yates engines uses a Rottler CNC hone is that a engine cylinder honing operation that used to take over six hours is now done in 45 minutes.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Let's be honest. He just wants to do this so he can sound cool after the engine is built. Just like using a dry sump set up that isn't really needed.
How can you be sure that a dry sump system is not needed for my build when you don’t even know the details of my mod motor combination or how I intend to use it?
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Let's play Devil's Advocate, one more time Jan.

So our minds are not cluttered with superfluous and potentially irrelevant data, why don't you explain to us one more time both how and why you have determined that the Dailey dry sump system is needed/required for your build. FWIW I think everyone sees the Dailey dry sump system as a premium dry-sump alternative, it is just not clear (to any of us) why it is required for your build.
Well, a very simple explanation for you would be that I want a 1000+ hp mod motor with custom JE pistons and other premium parts to survive being driven in anger around a road course and half mile events and since I’m spending a lot of time and money on the engine build, I want to avoid experiencing an engine failure so to that end, a dry sump system will increase reliability by eliminating oil system failures.

some people might see the dry sump system as a luxury but would you rather spend Some money now on a dry sump system to protect your engine or would you go without it and risk damaging an Expensive mod motor later on down the road?

I have seen with my own eyes several wet sump mod motor mustangs driven hard on a road course experience oil system failures so that is reason enough for me to include a dry sump system in my mustang.

And I didn’t even talk about the increased power benefit that a dry sump system has over a wet sump oil system.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
The Sunnen mahcines will produce a bore with straightness and roundness beyond what is required for even the highest performing engines. As you mentioned the stone selection and number is probably the biggest variable that plays into cross hatching and ring seal on break in. Those still have to be selected by a skilled operator regardless of the machine. The CNC machines may take a little guess work out of it but they are still far from fool proof. I would not second guess using a machine shop with a good track record and old school equipment
I agree that a key component in a search for a competent machine shop would be to partner with a shop with a proven reputation to deliver quality machine work for the racing community.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
So, once again, what we have here is a qualitative explanation without any quantitative data but a stated personal preference.




While there are clearly some engine failures that have occurred the obvious question is what was the cause of failure and why did only a few fail and not a wholesale portion of the cars running the engine?

What we have here, again, are personal preferences absent any quantitative or qualitative data to support the supposition.




All you have seen is some number of engine failure(s) presumably from an oiling system related. That said, unless you have done after-the-fact investigations into the source of the failure(s), you possess no evidence to attribute the failure to an inadequate on-track oil system. Notwithstanding the lack of any supporting forensic evidence, you did observe a failure and you did attribute it to a lack of a dry-sump oiling system. You also have presented no evidence, other than personal opinion, to prove the inadequacy of the non-dry-sump oil system.

What we have here, again, are personal preferences absent any qualitative data to support the supposition.





While dry-sump style oil systems have regularly demonstrated power improvements over their wet-sump alternatives, the represented 1000Hp+ power level you attribute to your not yet completed engine surely exceeds your car's ability to apply that level of power, in its entirety, to a racecourse. When you consider that the vehicle is already overpowered for the type of competition you are anticipating, why is there value in increasing an already unusably high amount of power in the vehicle?

What we have here, again, are personal preferences absent any qualitative data to support the supposition.
Thank you for responding although I disagree with most what you are saying. Of course you are not the only one to incorrectly assume that an SN95 mustang is unable to transmit over a 1000hp to the road.

As far as presenting evidence about the value of a dry sump system, the only person I need to present evidence to is myself because it’s my my build and I’m the one spending the money.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
With respect to it being your build and your money, you are absolutely correct, Jan. When you pull up a product and begin proselytizing about it, however, you start tipping the scale in the wrong direction. For example:



Your commentary about controlling windage, and eliminating pumping losses resulting in considerable power is misleading. The way it is presented a reader could interpret the commentary to represent a greater power gain than say a pulley change on the blower overdrive — when in fact the pulley change has greater upside potential and dramatically lower costs.

Once oil gets to the crankcase it is no longer pressurized as you indicate it is. It is olny pressurized by the oil pump while it is in the main oil galley and the tributary paths to the various bearings used in the engine. Your representation about a dry sump system looking after your engine by eliminating bearing wear is again misleading. The oil system does not look after any part of the engine. It is a passive hydraulic pump distributing lubricant to load-bearing surfaces in the engine. It does not eliminate bearing wear. It does supply a continuous supply of oil to the engine under almost all operating conditions.

The shafts in Journal Bearings are supported on a hydrodynamic wedge of oil. The hydrodynamic oil wedge is independent of both the oil pump and/or the oil system design. The only prerequisite for it to work is there needs to be a continuous supply of oil, without aeration, of sufficient viscosity to support the operating load in the bearing system. The following picture gives a visual rendition of the process;

View attachment 176076

In simple terms after the oil pump introduces the oil to the journal bearing mechanism, the rotating journal draws the lubricant under increasing lubicant pressure (created by the rotating journal) to the location identified as Pmax in the pic above. The journal never touches the bearing and the journal "floats" on a hydrodynamic wedge of oil protecting both the journal surface and the bearing surface.

The only thing a good dry sump contributes to this process is the de-aeration of the oil, if the system uses a de-aerator in the pump design, and certainly also a large oil capacity w/o a large oil pan. Dailey does all this and it is one of the best offerings currently available. Yes, a dry sump system does provide some negative crankcase pressure in scavenging the oil. Yes, this is supposed to provide good things, and yes when you see how small the power improvement is you will be heading back to the pulley drawer again for a smaller blower pulley.

While you are certainly entitled to do whatever you may want with your build choices, the lack of factual data in your representations of advantages for whatever your then-current favorite product of the day might be, coupled with your qualitative rather than quantitative representations of the benefits associated with using the product is simply misleading. Please refrain from those sorts of statements.

If you have found a new item that most members are likely to not know of, please share the knowledge. Please do not proselytize, make unsubstantiated, qualitative claims about power improvements attributable to these items unless of course, you have some real data and knowledge to share that demonstrates your representations. It is noteworthy that many, but by no means all, of the dry sump benefits can be realized with oil accumulator type products like an AccuSump and thoughtful oil pan design, at a much lower price point.
Sorry to say this, but your response is full of incorrect information. For example, you say that an in a wet sump engine, the crankcase is not pressurized and that is incorrect. You should know that depending on the condition of the cylinder walls and the piston rings, a certain amount of combustion gases will go past the rings and pressurize the crank case.

you should also know that in road course engines, using a wet sump oil system, even one with a fancy oil pan that has trap doors, Windage trays, etc, the oil still finds a way to hammer the crankshaft or move away from the oil pick up tube and the end result of those conditions is the creation of air bubbles in the oil system, a loss of oil pressure and thus bearing damage. A dry sump oil system eliminates those common oil system issues so it does indeed look after the engine.

Moving right along, I find your dry sump to blower pulley cost comparison interesting. There will always be a good debate about the cost to reward ratio of an upgrade, but I doubt that most people are not going to have a debate over the cost and comparison of a dry sump system vs a blower pulley change.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Ed, you and I will continue to disagree on the topic of dry sump systems so I’ll leave it at that. Finally, I will say that everything I have said in regards to dry sump oil systems is backed up by the fine folks at KRE Race Engines - Race Winning Sprintcar and V8 Supercar Engines and thus accurate.

And in case you did not know, KRE race engines supplies race engines to the majority of the Australian V8 Supercars series. Therefore I am confident that the information I presented in this thread concerning dry sump oil systems is accurate and backed up by facts.
 

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Discussion Starter · #21 ·
I have no doubt your quoted sources provide reliable information, Jan. The challenge you have is gleaning the information from the written word. Your ability to read and assimilate the information an author provides is heavily discounted. Witness the statements you misread, misinterpreted, and then incorrectly restated from my own posts and they were immediately in front of your eyes as you were challenging them. Step back from the hyperbole, hero-worship, and marketing hype. Just stick to the core facts and you will do much better. Try being quantitative and not qualitative in your product evaluations and representations — it will serve you much better.
I stand by my statements I have made in this thread in regards to dry sump oil systems. Furthermore, you say that I have “misread, misinterpreted..” your words, but you continue to be super condescending as you incorrectly assume my intentions, ability and how I intend to build and use my mod motor so this will be my last post for a while on this site.
 
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