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Discussion Starter · #21 ·
I have no doubt your quoted sources provide reliable information, Jan. The challenge you have is gleaning the information from the written word. Your ability to read and assimilate the information an author provides is heavily discounted. Witness the statements you misread, misinterpreted, and then incorrectly restated from my own posts and they were immediately in front of your eyes as you were challenging them. Step back from the hyperbole, hero-worship, and marketing hype. Just stick to the core facts and you will do much better. Try being quantitative and not qualitative in your product evaluations and representations — it will serve you much better.
I stand by my statements I have made in this thread in regards to dry sump oil systems. Furthermore, you say that I have “misread, misinterpreted..” your words, but you continue to be super condescending as you incorrectly assume my intentions, ability and how I intend to build and use my mod motor so this will be my last post for a while on this site.
 

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I stand by my statements I have made in this thread in regards to dry sump oil systems. Furthermore, you say that I have “misread, misinterpreted..” your words, but you continue to be super condescending as you incorrectly assume my intentions, ability and how I intend to build and use my mod motor so this will be my last post for a while on this site.

Although I suspect you will not read this for some time Jan, if and when you do, you should know that it is not condescending to point out factual inconsistencies and misrepresentations which are practices you are so skilled at. I make no assumptions about your intentions, abilities, or how you intend to build and use your engine/car combination, beyond what you have stated.

Your postings frequently misrepresent fact and draw inaccurate conclusions from complete and accurate data that you misinterpret and subsequently misstate — notwithstanding the presence and availability of the correct written commentary/data in the source document(s) you are using. The bottom line is that you incur difficulty in reading and comprehension of the written word. Then, based on this incomplete and inaccurate assimilation of the information you have read, you veer off on an illogical tangent that is not supported by any of the data or for that matter, written word.

As I observed previously, it is impressive how much you know that isn't true.
 

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Discussion Starter · #23 ·
You are spot-on Tommy! I think when all the arm-waving and technobabble is over, the answer is that the real benefit of the machine is to cut down the manhours required to finish a block to an assembly-ready condition. I don't believe there is any measurable horsepower difference in the finished work product that is meaningful. There is however, a significant labor content difference in the job that is meaningful to the shop.

The bottom line is the benefits that accrue from the use of this type of machinery belong exclusively to the shop, not to the customer. It is simply a reduction in the labor content of the shop's service offering. The more specialized equipment allows a specific job, in this case honing, to be accomplished in less time making it more profitable for the shop and not any meaningful difference in engine power output for the customer.
I’m back to clear some misconceptions about CNC honing because it appears that Ed and others know very little about it.

You say that “ you do not believe that there is measurable power difference,” but engine performance at the highest levels of professional racing is a science, not religion and there is hard data to support that is a significant difference performance wise between an old manual hone and the latest CNC honing equipment.

Look at the photo below and you see a digital map of a just honed cylinder and you will see that it is not straight. Of course we are talking thousands of an inch, but the point is that you can see just how round a cylinder is with digital equipment and you can’t see it with a dial bore gauge.

The rounder you can make a cylinder, the more power it will make. Simple as that.

finally, I saw a presentation presented by total seal piston rings and Rottler and one technical rep from total seal stated that it is not possible to get an absolutely perfect cylinder wall finish using old manual equipment.

The big takeaway here is that a CNC hone not only saves time, it ensures that that cylinder is absolutely perfect. Something that cannot be done with a manual Hone machine.
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No one is arguing that purpose-built professional race teams can harvest incrementally more power, longevity, and durability from high-precision preparation and machining. The real-world issues for enthusiasts on this site are severalfold and different;
  1. Is the technology readily available,
  2. What other events, prep, technology, etc. are required to realize the benefits,
  3. When you are all in and all done, is it cost-effective — what is the difference in delivered power per $ spent?
  4. In the bigger picture, does it make a difference for the typical enthusiast's build? (a slight variation on #3 above)
The answer to #1 is (in the case of the Rottler machine) a highly probable yes.

The answer to #2 is indeterminate at this time.

The answer to #3 is simply unknown. Notwithstanding all your promotional rhetoric, no proof of, nor measure of power improvement/cost has been provided for evaluation.

The answer to #4 can only be determined by providing the answer to #3. Many times you feel compelled to promote distinctions without a difference — uncool.

Jan, your enthusiasm for various tech improvements always comes with a generous helping of hyperbole and a scarcity of data to support the claims. As is usual, this applies once again. If you have some A: B comparisons with hard numbers, it would be more useful than your unsupported promotional rhetoric. Another worthwhile attribute to add to your postings is reality. Your statement:
... The big takeaway here is that a CNC hone not only saves time, it ensures that that cylinder is absolutely perfect. Something that cannot be done with a manual Hone machine
While not inaccurate, is meaningless for any engine build being done by anyone on this website. The time saved is inconsequential because no one is on a professional race-mandated schedule where a few minutes difference in block preparation makes any difference whatsoever in the build. As I stated in a previous post this is a machine shop benefit, not a customer benefit! Beyond the time issue, I can not tell you how long it has been since I saw a shop manually hone a customer's block. Any reputable shop today has or has access to some type of automated honing equipment.

Nothing is ever perfectly anything when we are dealing with dimensions. The important question is does the difference, make a difference? In the situations, you enjoy getting wrapped up in, the answer is a profound no! The micro-inch and smaller variation improvements that the Rottler might be able to provide will produce horsepower differences that are within a dynamometer's margin of error and as such are unaccountable. The differences may provide a longevity or other difference in an engine used for hours in a competitive event — certainly nothing the typical reader of this forum would be competing in.

Please attempt to refrain from your hyperbole as you recount your latest "discoveries" and like Joe Friday used to say in the Streets of San Francisco TV franchise, "Just the facts, Ma'am." Your contributions could have increasing value rather than being a hyperbolic expose of the most recent technology you have personally just discovered.
 

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Not making any presumptions on the OP's intentions and/or needs for stated dry sump. Just here to say that there are some pretty crazy, and pretty common, 1000+hp road race cars out there, specifically in time attack / hill climb / Pike's Peak / NASA unlimited classes and general track day cars.....there seems to be more demand for such competition, and thus, cars in that category of power these days. 1000+hp track cars that put that power to the ground are very trackable cars but they are obviously extremely high end builds usually generating huge levels of downforce (1000kg + at 150mph) and thus can create massive cornering loads as they're also running 320mm slicks or larger all the way around to take advantage of that downforce.....in such a situation a dry sump is almost mandatory to keep the motor properly lubricated. If that is the level the OP is planning to go, then i'd say his needs for a dry sump are well warranted, but to me it sounds like its more of a preventative measure for the money being spent on what is an expensive motor.....which is fine i'm not here to make that determination.

Just for fun, here is one of the more extreme examples of such cars....Paul's Automotive GT350. At the time of the article below, this car was around 850 to the tire. Its evolved quite a bit since then, now with a rear mounted turbo, paddle shift, more boost, different engine package etc and on high boost is making somewhere in the neighborhood of 1100whp.

The Paul's Automotive Engineering GT350 Is An 850hp, Record-Breaking, Time Attack Monster (wiseco.com)

Here he is doing a lap at VIR......on the back straight he's almost at 190mph which is outrageous given the downforce.....IMSA GTD cars are doing about 165mph there.

2022 Grassroots Motorsports UTCC Fast Lap at VIR - YouTube
 

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I think you can make a cost-effective argument for a dry sump on a 1000 HP road race car much more credibly than on an 800 -1000 HP drag car. The most significant benefit of the dry sump is the oil control in the crankcase and the oil tank. For a 10-second or shorter pass down the dragstrip, a properly baffled wet sump with reasonable windage control and an oil accumulator will give you about 90% of the benefits, if not more, that a dry sump can / will deliver.

That said, the dry sump is certainly at the top of the pyramid in terms of absolute oil control and delivery. In that context, the representations about the Dailey Engineering alternative are spot on. It is simply a very impressive system. It is also thousands of dollars more expensive, with more complex plumbing and space requirements than the higher-end wet sump or external pump wet sump alternatives available.
 
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